After the eighth school shooting in seven weeks – some gun control proposals

No the point is you can think that there is no reason to expect that if we take away guns then it will solve our problems Further it shows that gun shops do do background checks. It has been suggested that gun shops are being irresponsible in sales just to make money. It also has been suggested that if someone commits domestic violence that they are getting guns. It appears that is not so in this case. I'm pretty sure that background check is a federal one. The same rules for every state.

 

Oh please it is one of the first responses spewed by a liberal when a white man either disagrees with Obama or a black liberal or a liberal in general.

Look around these threads. I have seen about 6 people called racist here. All dissenters to the left wingers in the thread.

And in America.

Or suggest that blacks might have a crime problem. Nah that's racist.

 

He did NOT pass a background check and could NOT purchase a gun.

The black commentator supports gun laws and gun ownership to prevent being subjected to crimes. A point that the left wingers on these threads seem to say are non realistic reasons to need a gun. Because they think gun owners are over reacting to unrealistic needs.

 

And how is that bad?

 

Incredibly, some Conservative Republican figures have been going after the student survivors of the Florida shooting, as they did the parents & survivors of Sandy Hook.
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No decency, No shame.

 

You're asking why the deception by the NRA is bad?? Lol wtf

 

Racism and crime

Ok this has been raised so let’s look at it – the thing is that there does seem to be a certain amount to racism either overt or covert, conscious or unconscious associated with this issue, but often because there is a certain political viewpoint associated with this issue.

As pointed out the demographic of gun ownership leans toward white, male and right wing.

The Social Darwinist viewpoint that is prevalent in a lot of right wing thinking has a tendency to look down on disadvantaged people, as being ‘not as good’ as those that are better off, to see them as ‘lesser’ or ‘inferior’

The problem in an American context is this has a crossover with race in that Black households have traditionally had some of the lowest median incomes according to the US census.

Now certain types of crime are often connected with certain economic factors the close to poverty people are the more likely they are to become involved in street crime in many places in the world with is crimes committed by the poorest and/or the more discriminated in society, the Irish, the Italians, the Gypsies, the Latinos, the immigrants and in the US the black and browns.

So ‘blacks’ become associated with a certain criminality and criminals are seen as black and its only short step to seeing black people as ‘inherently’ criminal.

Even Mac who claims he is black has expressed the view that black people as a group are more violent and murderous than others, to be, in other words ‘baser’ than other human beings (a strange thing for someone who claims to be black to express but as my mother says ‘it takes all sort’)

So if people (mainly white, right wing and more likely to be gun owners) think that black people are inherently criminal they are more likely to convict them of crime and agree with harasser punishments for them (‘it’s all they understand’). Also such people are less likely to employ a ‘criminal’ black person, furthering discrimination and racial inequality.

In this context guns can be seen as a means of social control over the more economically disadvantaged that they fear (which for a lot of Americans is associated with being black or brown).

As one person told me he didn’t want gun control because most gun homicides involved inner city criminals and he didn’t care if black and brown ‘criminals’ killed each other and if they tried to come after him he wanted to be able to have all the guns he wanted to protect himself.

So when people (mostly from the right) say that ‘blacks’ have a crime problem they are being racist because is this a race thing or a socio-economic problem and if looked at in the context of other countries and history then it is clear that it’s not a racial issue but a socio-economic one.

To me one of the problems with gun ownership is that it is seen as a way of tackling just the symptoms of a deeper socio-economic problem and thereby ignoring it.

 

Maybe it’s just the hope that is speaking but it seems to me that the veil is beginning to fall from the eyes of many Americans and the curtain pulled back to reveal the might NRA Oz is just a silly con artist in a cheap suite taking bribes.

I mean I’ve been discussing the need for gun control with Americans a lot longer than just the 17 years I’ve been on this forum but in all that time I’ve never, that is NEVER, heard any anti-gun control lobbyist give a rational and reasonable argument why prudent gun control should not be enacted.

And then I would look around and see that many Americans just didn’t seem to notice just how crap were the gun lobbyist arguments or just how silly was the he whole dumb stance.

But it feels to me that many Americans, especially young Americans, have just gone - ‘what?’- to the gun lobbyists ‘that crap is the reason why their isn’t decent gun control that bull shit is all you fucking have’.

 

I will agree there is a lot of correlation to economics and education. Poor whites commit a higher rate of crime than affluent ones. And it stands to reason if there are more poor blacks than there are more crimes in that group. I am in no way however suggesting that this gives any of them of either race a pass on crime.

The fact that 15% of the population is committing 50% of the crime makes it a racial reality. It's isn't about whites making it about race. Just like we know that the vast majority of mass shootings have been committed by white men makes that a racial reality that the whites don't seem to try avoiding acknowledging.

I see no attempts by our government or white voters on either side trying to protect or rather try and argue that the the racial profile of mass shooters can't be white or we are just being racial by talking about it.

 

I also have supported better gun controls for years. And while I don't belong to the NRA nor do I believe they represent my values, I liken them to the ACLU. They go to extremes to preserve the rights we have. Once you let the government chip away at our rights, the little chips get bigger if we don't care about the chips. It's an ugly process they put us through as Americans. What I absolutely HATE is how our politicians put their lobbying money ahead of our votes.

 

Not

Please can you marshal your thoughts and explain your thinking again this is close to gibberish

You claim you want gun control but then you seem to say that gun control would ‘chip away’ at your (and other Americans) rights and you don’t want because that’s ‘ugly’ and you want to vote but hate the democratically elected politicians that have been voted into power.

WHAT are you on about?

You say you are in favour of gun control can you please clearly state and explain what you mean by that?

 

Not

So the thing to do is do something to help the disadvantaged – but as I’ve pointed out before right wingers seem opposed to rational ideas (increased spending on education and training, decent welfare and healthcare etc) preferring it seems to push less rational things like gun ownership and harsher punishment as a means of tackling crime rates.

First can you cite where you got these figures – I can’t find them.

I’ve heard many right wingers make the same claim or something similar “black people commit more crimes than white people” or “the reason why more black people are in prison is because they commit the most crime”

But as pointed out the reality is a lot more complex and nuanced.

While the poverty rate for the population as a whole is 12.7% the rate varies greatly by race. Blacks have the highest poverty rate at 22.0% and Non-Hispanic whites the lowest at 8.8%. The Poverty rate for Blacks and Hispanics is more than double that of non-Hispanic Whites.

Now as you accept socio-economic factors have a huge influence on people’s likelihood of doing criminal acts and in the US the adverse effects of those socio-economic factors fall mainly on the black population.

Thing is do you point a finger at the socio-economic or at race

I would blame the socio-economic factors you want to blame a particular race – have you asked yourself why you are fixated on the racial dimension even when you accept the more important thing is the socio-economic one?

To repeat - if people (mainly white, right wing and more likely to be gun owners) think that black people are inherently criminal they are more likely to convict them of crime and agree with harasser punishments for them (‘it’s all they understand’). Also such people are less likely to employ a ‘criminal’ black person, furthering discrimination and racial inequality.

 

I find this intriguing to put it mildly. Street crime actually is more prevalent in poor communities is the real answer. That intersects with racial divides because as your post mentions (though I think the numbers for African Americans and Hispanics are higher) there is a high incidence of poverty for these groups. I believe that this is tied to racial discrimination in many ways. It is more difficult for African American and Hispanic/Latino applicants to get hired. The list goes on and on, but I realize that I'm preaching to the choir, so I will leave it at that.

 

Soul

Its often linked

Social Darwinist thinking (that is behind a lot of right wing ideas) leads people to believe that the lower socio-economic groups are ‘inferior’ (less intelligent, more violent, more criminally minded etc)

Black people as a group are in the US inhabit the lower socio-economic strata so those with Social Darwinist tendencies will see black people as less intelligent, more violent, more criminally minded etc and therefore be less likely to employ them and more likely to convict them, deepening social economic and in this context racial inequality.

 

Yes, it once was an Irish problem. Irish-Americans were seen as baser, prone to alcoholism and violence. "Whenever they got his Irish up, Clancy lowered the BOOM!" Then they became cops and politicians. They had a big advantage in having white, even fair, skin, and never had a history of actual bond slavery. That helped in their upward mobility.African-Americans are getting there. Many are now lawyers, doctors, accountants. One even became President. But there are still disproportionately large numbers in poverty--as you say, "the lower socio-economic strata." Native Americans also were plagued by these stereotypes, but then came oil wells for the Osage and casinos for others, and Chickasaws, Choctaws, and Cherokees have major PR programs going and have become patrons of the arts. There's been enough intermarriage that some look more like Elizabeth Warren than Sitting Bull.

 

There are several databases that can be cited. I didn't cherry pick this one. I picked it because it was the first one made a quick summary rather than pages of government sources that isn't summarized. I'm sure there is other sites I just picked this one. And yes I see that it uses data from 2010 with a Democratically held white house so I'm open to accepting that there may more current info, I just haven't searched it up.

Us Crime in Black & White by YouPplAreNuts - Infogram
Further in some areas its more than others. Example: Lets see what the Milwaukee community looks like as told by the chief of police there. Milwaukee appears to be about a 50/50 mix of white to black population.



And president Obama agreed with the statistical facts.





Now if we take a look at oh I don't know say Iowa or some other Demographic we can compare the results. I'm not gonna do that I am just saying we all have a different perspective that exist depending upon our own circumstances.

This isn't about focusing on it being a racial thing, its about identifying the problem. If the problem results in being focused, for whatever reason on a specific race, I'd like to be able to have a discussion about it without being called names. All of the black people in my life try to stay way from the same things I as a white man does. Crime. If that crime is the same for both of us, how can one be racist and the other not.
As to the rest of your ?? posed. Better for another thread and another time. It goes away from the discussion of guns.

 

Not

Read it - doesn’t seem to back up what you said can you please cite where you did get the figures you posted earlier please.

And you seem to be saying you think the problem is that black people are more likely to be ‘bad’ people they are genetically disposed to be criminal and violent?

But as explained in different countries and at different times the races have been different but the common theme was the socio-economic factors associated with those groups, in that they were more likely to be economically or socially disadvantaged.

So is the problem likely to be a specific race (which changes) or socio-economic factors (which seem to remain the same)

You keep going back to race and I wonder why.[/quote][/quote]

 

For Pete's sake did you not look at the charts or listen to Obama say exactly what the charts suggest?

"And you seem to be saying you think the problem is that black people are more likely to be ‘bad’ people they are genetically disposed to be criminal and violent?"

Where on earth did I say that at all in anything? If you see that in these charts that is not my problem to contend with.

"I keep going back to race...you wonder why"........I give up. You will make me out to be a racist, even though a black Democratic president agrees its the same problem and agrees its the same statistics.

Liberals need to look within if they can't support what their own president states are problems faced in America.

"But as explained in different countries and at different times the races have been different but the common theme was the socio-economic factors associated with those groups, in that they were more likely to be economically or socially disadvantaged."

So start a thread to discuss this and let's look at other countries absolutely.