The Donald Trump Score Card

Interesting. I meant better appeal to working class Americans. In my mind that doesn't automatically equal Republican voters. And Hillary didn't appeal to anyone I know, even in my own family. My uncle Craig voted for Trump; that's like Mr. Rogers voting for Trump. The impression I got from people the last presidential election was that a vote for Hillary was a vote for men using the women's restroom and the like, things that don't really matter around here. I'm not trying to say that's a fair representation of the Democrats in general but I can see where these voters are coming from.

 

Fair enough, I get a little feisty when I hear the "appeal to center" cliche because typically it's referring to more establishment, old school type Dems who show strong support for business and support neoliberal ideals, rather than the new crop of Democrats who have gone further to the left

But if you're talking in terms of Democrats who will appeal to working class voters, those are going to be the Democrats who have gone further to the left...the ones supporting medicare for all, the green new deal, a higher marginal tax rate, and affordable or free higher education

Which I do see as the center, actually. The majority of Americans support these proposals despite them being presented by corporate media and establishment politicians as "far left ideas"

 

I'd nuance that in a couple of ways. For one thing the entire country has moved to the left, even rank and file Republicans. I don't know of any Republicans who want to get rid of Social Security or Medicare, for example (although there are those in the party leadership who would be happy to get rid of both.)

Another thing, I feel, is that the majority of Americans have no problem using government to help the disadvantaged so long as those people are helping themselves. If the question of free education or universal access to medical care where phrased to the effect of 'should these people have to work for these benefits' many would answer 'yes'. I don't know if would be the majority of respondents or not, but it could easily be enough to hand the election to the more conservative candidate. And when it comes to taxes Americans don't think at all it would seem. Trump offered a temporary tax cut to individuals that expires in the 2020s sometime...but the corporate tax cut is permanent. A little greed goes a long way it seems.

 

Howard has to run in the Democrat primary...first. He has to beat the others...first. The Democrats will vote in their classic Democrat fashion...for the Democrat candidate. Howard can run as an independent...if he wants to do that. There are independents in every election...even Greens and Libertarians. The Greens saw what happened to the Green legal protection of the environment after Trump got hold of it. I doubt they will split from the Democrats next time. The Ralph Nader "consumer rights" voter will not split from the Democrats, after Trump and Mulvaney stuck it to them. 7 millions Muslims now know exactly what the Republicans think of them and will vote Democrat...accordingly. Most Latino voters now have a rather complete understanding pursuant Trump's comments concerning Mexican immigrants being criminals, concerning Puerto Rico, His Wall, and the nations he calls shitholes. So, I add all these classes of voters to the women voters, and the African American voters, and the Union/worker rights voters, and finally the animal rights voters who were offended by the elephant parts photos. I will concede the KKK, The Proud Boys, The White Nationalists, The General Issue Small Time Bigots, The Heavily Armed White Guys who kill Muslim College Students in North Carolina, and Innocent Jewish Worshipers in Pittsburg, Pennsylvania, and the Christian Fanatics will surely vote for Trump & Pence.

 

You are right Meliai. Joe Donnely put some TV adds right before the election in November. The adds told voters he supported Trump's Wall, and Gun Rights, etc. I met Joe...a great guy. But, his strategy to appeal to the Trump voter was one which produced little fruit. In Indian, the Trump voter is going to support Trump & Pence come hell or high water, because that voter model never really learned anything in school.

 

For the last 14 years I've been trying to get the Republicans to understand that Medicare Disability Insurance is: INSURANCE. The worker pays for it every paycheck then has the right to take the benefits after a health problem. It is not free. It is insurance. Social Security is OLD AGE INSURANCE. It is a benefit of the worker paying for years and years into a system that went into law back in 1933 when FDR had to repair the damage inflicted by a Republican administration which let corporate greed run out of control.

 

I just dont really buy the idea that there's this big portion of people who are trying to mooch off the government and who would rather sit at home in shitty section 8 housing living off food stamps rather than working. I think this is mostly propaganda that has been pushed on us.

Are there people who do scam the government? Sure but I dont believe they're the huge problem FOX News would have us all believe there are. There will always be people who would rather scam than work, but I dont see it as a big enough issue to just not attempt something like a single payer healthcare system.

Plus. Investing in the health and education of a populace will always be just that, an investment. The US would see a bigger return on it than what they put into it. And if people in lower income brackets had a real chance to get an education and escape a cycle of poverty without having to go into soul crushing debt to do it, I think most would and would thus decrease the number of people who would scam their way through life rather than make an honest living.

 

I don't disagree with any of that. I'm saying there is a perception, used by politicians, that it is a huge problem and anyone hoping to get elected on a platform of expanded government benefits will have to overcome that. I think 'The Wall' is an example of this. We don't need a wall between us and Mexico, but enough people believe we do. Rightly or wrongly it is important to a lot of people so it will have to be addressed by the Democrat candidate. Similarly, if we're talking about expanding, say, Medicare, the conservatives will bring up people living of government and costing taxpayers money and the Democrat candidate should be prepared for that.

I hope I ain't coming across as a Trump supporter 'cause I am not. I detest him. I just am afraid the Dems are going to blow it again like last time and I don't want to see that. The next election will not be easy for the Democrats to win in my view.

 

Ah, gotcha. Yeah I dont disagree with anything you're saying either then. But I do think Democrats should stop worrying about courting the conservative vote. They should do what they can to outline their plans properly (and make sure they have well thought out positions that will help the working class in the first place) and explain how they'll be beneficial, they should stick with reasonable, fact based arguments, and I think they'll win some working class votes in swing states by doing this. But people who are staunchly Republican arent going to change their minds no matter how something is presented. And especially not the Trump Republicans. You're in a red state, you know how it is. Democrats would be wasting their time trying to appeal to them.

But I agree Democrats dont have the luxury of nominating a lackluster candidate this go round. And i'm afraid that will be exactly what is going to happen.

I know you're not a Trumper I know we have some basic ideological differences when it comes to politics but you're quite reasonable and easy to discuss politics with, despite any differences

 

A first for the Trump thread...two people who don't see eye to eye not reverting to ad hominem attacks. The mods should close it now.

 

/thread

 

Oral would have met his goal and then some if he'd said God would call him home if he did raise the $8million. That might work better for Trump with the $8 billion, too.

 

Dice

So as I understand it you have basically been play ‘devil’s advocate’ putting forward what you think the opposition thinks while not thinking it yourself?

The thing is that does not help us here – I mean I think many of us here are conversant with right wing views the problem for me is trying to understand why they have them when they seem unable to defend them from criticism.

I agree I think many right wingers would say ‘yes’ but the question is why? Are these people just ill-informed, are they informed but still saying ‘yes’ and if so why, I mean what, what is their thinking, because that is the first step into countering or correcting it.

The problem I have found is that many right wingers don’t seem to have a clue why they hold the ideas they hold and for some reason don’t seem to have the capacity to question their beliefs.

So if their views are criticised they bluster, lie, get huffy and run away.

It makes the task of actually understanding why they think the way they do extremely difficult.

Time and again it means we have to fall back on what we think they base their viewpoints on and without any rational alternatives if means we often see them as rooted in basic instincts

Why in favour of tax cuts – greed

Why in favour of the wall – fear

Why are they against welfare/healthcare – they think they are being tricked by others (paranoia) – they think the benefits go disproportionately to black/brown people (racism)

And so on and so on

The inability of the right to come up with any coherent arguments for the things they say they support lays them open to speculations as to their true motives.

So some on the left talks about grievance politics, cultural change and malevolent neoliberalism but the problem here is that even when these are looked at they don’t stand up because when examined it should mean these people should be supporting at least liberal ideas if not left wing ones.

For example when a lot of a person’s economic woes are due to neoliberal policies why would that person support neoliberal ideas and vote for neoliberal politicians, it makes no sense.

I mean why do 35% of Americans still support Trump?

 

Okie! Trump just issued a statement saying he wants to put Bible Study classes in public schools...Oral Roberts, Jerry Falwell, and Jimmy Swaggart will be so over-joyed!

 

MeAgain

But it’s not just the Republicans is the whole of the modern right.

And what gets me is that so many come here (and other places) to justify and promote the views that when asked they clearly can’t defend from criticism.

And the funny thing is that it’s them that gets annoyed when they can’t address the criticisms - as if it is our fault that their views are so crap and fall over when given the slightest nudge.

It’s them that gets all huffy and fake self-righteous at us for having the temerity to question their ideas.

But to me the tragedy is that even when they’ve had to run away because their views have been eviscerated, they still lack the ability to wonder why that’s happened and so carry on supporting right wing views and politicians.

 

I hate his coffee, so I won't vote for him.

 

This from a guy who only goes to church for the photo op, and to find women he can potentially fuck.

 

Sarah Sanders will likely say that the recent poll results have nothing to do with Trump.



As Trump slides in new poll, he retreats deeper into Fox News fantasyland
By Greg Sargent
January 28 at 9:35 AM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...asyland/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.099371bad11c

excerpt:

First, let’s look at the new Post-ABC polling. Some highlights:

57 percent rate Trump’s handling of border security negatively, a remarkable indictment of Trump on his signature issue.
61 percent say Trump is not honest or trustworthy.
58 percent say Trump lacks the personality and temperament to serve effectively as president.
56 percent say Trump has not brought needed change to Washington.
65 percent say Trump does not understand the problems of people like them.
58 percent say Trump is not good at making political deals.
64 percent do not have a lot of confidence that Trump will make the right decisions for the country’s future.

A new NBC News-Wall Street Journal poll reports similar findings across the board.