Brexit

Zen

I would only hope that it was as obvious to the leavers.

I mean it’s very clear that Brexit would be a bad idea that would hurt the country and its people and the thing is that the leavers here don’t seem able to dispute that but when this is pointed out they just tell me I just don’t get ‘it’ although they don’t seem able to explain what ‘it’ is.

It’s like they have secret reasons for wanting Brexit that are too embarrassing or outrageous to mention in public and if I knew what they were I’d get ‘it’.

But if these things are so embarrassing and so outrageous that they can’t be mentioned in public how can they be good ideas or reasons for hurting so many people and the country they live in?

 

Booze

Why?

I really would like to understand why the leavers want to leave and so far I’ve been met with hostility, bluster and evasion BUT very like in the way of actual substance

The leavers don’t seem to have any concrete reasons for wanting to leave just a bunch of myths and prejudices topped with a slice of jingoism.

I can answer the questions – YOU CAN’T

I can explain why I have my views - YOU CAN’T

I can address the criticisms of my views - YOU CAN’T

Who is winding who up?

 

Mal

But Public Services have been adversely effected by UK right wing political polices that have NOTHING to do with the EU.

Ok then well what evidence do you have that the EU or migrants from the EU have an adverse affect on public services in the UK?

Because so far you have produced nothing - NOTHING - to back up your claims about the EU.

Why is it relevant?

I was raised in the north of England but have travelled around. I’ve done many jobs in my life, I’ve been an agricultural worker, I’ve been a labourer in the building trade, I’ve done office work and been in retail, I’ve had a small business, I’ve worked in both the private and the public sector and at the moment I’m managing an office. I’ve worked mainly in the UK but also have lived and worked in other countries. I’m dyslexic which wasn’t diagnosed when I was at school so I didn’t do well there but I worked at it, went to night school got qualifications and eventually a degree.

Why is it relevant?

And how is you been a mechanic relevant?

BUT how has the EU adversely affected your life, I’ve asked several times now but you refuse to answer or explain?

Well you don’t seem to have that much knowledge about the things you are arguing for so what would you call that?

Ignorance isn’t a sin it’s an opportunity, if you find out you don’t know about or understand something you can choose to stay ignorant or become more knowledgeable.

Debate is a great way of learning, and you learn by answering questions and addressing criticisms in an open and honest way. Why not do that?

Brexit is one of the most important decision that this country will take in a generation and leaving will have long term adverse consequences for the UK, yet you don’t seem to have that much knowledge of the subject and don’t seem to care about the harm Brexit will cause.

 

So we have looked at the supposed reasons why leavers claim they want to leave and none of them seem to stand up to scrutiny

And so far no leavers here has come up with anything to defend their stance.

So why do they still want to leave?

Well some people have suggested that they are by now so invested that it is difficult to admit they might be wrong.

Even if they realise that they have made a mistake they can’t bring themselves to admit that.

And the way they just seem to what to silence the critics rather than address the criticism points to that – it’s like they want to stick their fingers in their ears to block out hearing bad news – it’s not that the bad news goes away it’s just that they don’t have to hear it and react to it.

Other leavers seem to be using a different tactics.

Some try to bluff it out by trying to claim their arguments that have just fell flat on their faces in cardiac arrest are really fit well and running a half-marathon. Yet others go on the attack, besmirching there opponents and moaning about all the questions they haven’t answered.

Those don’t work either

Imagine a car rolling toward a cliff

In the first scenario – the passenger in the back tells the driver to use the brake but instead he closes his eyes and puts his finger in his ears

In the second scenario – again the passenger in the back tells the driver to use the brake but instead the driver argues that the car is not moving and anyway there is no cliff

In the third scenario – so once more the passenger in the back tells the driver to use the brake but this time the driver starts laying into the passenger calling them a back seat driver who shouldn’t question what the driver is doing, while all the time the car accelerate toward the cliff.

This seems to be the basic responses of leavers to criticism

But in all three scenario’s the driver know the cliff’s going to happen they all must know they are doing wrong, shouldn’t they?

And all they need to do is do as the passenger says and put their foot on the brake.

 

Carpet / textiles ! When Poland became a member of the EU we started to get a steady trickle of Polish workers coming over to work in the UK that trickle soon became a flood ! Which you are fine with but this is not about you don't forget . after a year or so of this 07 / 08 a delegation came into our company saying they have a large factory in a town in Poland ( from the Communist days ) half filled with carpet looms (belonging to UK companies ) and we should also go into this partnership and move our Axminster weaving plant to Poland , lots of EU grants (giving us some of our own money back ) and plenty skilled workers our boss fell for the speil and it was done
I was the one given the job of moving my weaving plant to Poland ( I argued that it wouldn't work as I had worked in a carpet factory there in the 90s )
Seems all the skilled workers only wanted to work in the UK though and the ones they could get for local wages were incompetent and after about ten goes at sorting things out and a couple of weeks after my visit them fucking up I refused to go any more and we Employed a skilled Mechanic (from Kidderminster ) to go work there
that lasted about a year before our company had to pull the plug !!
no EU grants to move the plant back to the UK though so everything was sold off (or given away ) I still work for that company but a lot of people lost their jobs thanks to that project !!

Was that a case of the EU affecting my life ? You tell me !

incidentally I never mentioned Public services ( that was you )

Now I really have finished here

 

Mal

How is that the EU’s fault?

This sounds like a business deal that didn’t play out how was that the fault of the EU?

Was this Cavalier Carpets where 30 jobs were lost when the company moved its Axminster department to Poland in an effort to reduce costs in 2007?

"We have consulted the unions and are now talking to individual people about what happens next. We need to show a commitment to our retailers and this allows to do that. It is a positive move because the majority of our staff in Blackburn are on the service and finishing side of the business. Their jobs will not be affected."

If so it was a company decision about trying to reduce costs that was not forced on it by the EU, blame the company for the loss of jobs not the EU.

On the other hand thousands have already lost jobs because of Brexit (the loss of the European Medicines Agency alone cost 900 jobs) and it’s going to get worse.

 

The people pushing Brexit told people that jobs would be unaffected by leaving the EU, and accused those that said otherwise that it was project fear.

The car companies are closing down or not putting in the investment (in other words winding down) British Steel is on the critical list and a government drip feed.

A new study from the London School of Economics (Feb 2019) found that British firms are choosing to invest in EU countries rather than their domestic market due to Brexit while EU businesses have been spending less on investment into Britain. This has led to losses to the U.K. of more than $13 billion to date, with the report’s authors expecting that number to rise.

The two agencies that the Sun said were unlikely to leave the UK (more Brexit fear mongering) have left the European Medicines Agency has gone to Amsterdam and the European Banking Authority to Paris.

We have not even left and the adverse effects of leaving are already apparent.

 

What a load of garbage..

 

I knew you would do that Nobody said it was forced on it !! How can you not fucking see that you asked for an example of how being in the EU affected my life and I gave you one If we were not in the EU they would never have been able to do that (how many more times has this Happened and nobody knows about it until someone like me answers a Question )
The loss of jobs because Immigrants work for less has been going on for years but if its in London (and you can blame Brexit ) its fucking news !

 

Moot, draw a line now..

_________________________________________________________

 

Mal

Who would not have been able to do what?

You think companies will not be able to move or outsource because we are outside of the EU?

Have you not been reading – Brexit makes it more likely that companies will move away for the UK not less?

And for years neoliberal polices have made it easier for UK companies to move due to UK government policies not EU ones, governments inside the EU like those of Germany and France have industrial policies aimed at keeping and nurturing German and French industries (and keeping them German and French) in the UK neoliberal policies have in the main left that up to the market that is why most of our industries are foreign owned often by German and French companies.

Have you never looked into any of this?

What do you base that on?

Have you actually looked into it to see if it is true?

The thing that pushes down wages are things like zero hour contracts but that’s because the UK government’s neoliberal policies allow them (even encourage them) most EU countries have outlawed these contracts, heavily restrict them, or don’t see them widely used. The UK is one of the country where zero hours contracts are both legal and fairly common.

And the people who are pushing for Brexit the hardest are neoliberals that want to limit or get rid of workers’ rights.

Basically it’s been a con - right wingers have been shovelling shit on the country for years and blaming the EU for it.

Now many of the same right wingers are pulling another con called Brexit and you are falling for it.

 

Do immigrants depress wages?

The most recent research from the centre for economic performance at the London School of Economics says “the areas of the UK with large increases in EU immigration did not suffer greater falls in the jobs and pay of UK-born workers. The big falls in wages after 2008 are due to the global financial crisis and a weak economic recovery, not to immigration.”

Several studies have shown a small negative effect of migration on the wages of low-skilled workers in certain sectors in certain parts of the country, particularly care workers, shop assistants, and restaurant and bar workers. The effect has been measured at less than 1% over a period of eight years.

“The bottom line, which may surprise many people, is that EU immigration has not harmed the pay, jobs or public services enjoyed by Britons. In fact, for the most part it has likely made us better off. So, far from EU immigration being a “necessary evil” that we pay to get access to the greater trade and foreign investment generated by the EU single market, immigration is at worse neutral, and at best, another economic benefit.”

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The Brexit migration policy debate is misdiagnosing the problem in relation to our labour market and the so-called ‘undercutting’ of British workers.

Border control and more restrictive immigration policies are presented as the solution to poor conditions or limited jobs for British workers. Presenting the problem in this way completely misses out the role of the state in regulating the labour market and enforcing labour law. Instead this analysis is focussed on whether or not migration should be restricted and to what extent. In a well-functioning immigration system, it should not be possible for employers to use migrant workers as a strategy to evade basic labour rights and employment law...

Unless enforcement of labour standards is fully integrated into post-Brexit immigration reforms, all workers in the UK – migrant and citizen alike – may be worse off and at a higher risk of labour abuse and exploitation.

 

Carpets and Brexit

If we crash out of the EU lots on industries will face huge problems let us look at those that will face the carpet industries.

If we crash out to WTO rules the government has already decided that it will reduce the tariff for carpet coming into the country from around the world to ZERO.

So all the carpet that were coming in to the UK from non-EU countries that ae now paying 8% tariff will now pay nothing the carpets from say China, Asia and America will all become 8% cheaper.

This will be hard on UK manufacturers

And the thing is that this is unlikely to be reciprocated by other WTO members (they don’t have to and why would they).

So UK carpet manufacturers will still have to carry on paying the same tariffs as before when exporting to non-EU countries.

BUT also they will have to pay EU tariffs if they sell into the EU (which I think is 8%) so whereas before there was no tariff there will now be a tariff.

This means the UK carpet will have to be more expensive in the EU or the UK manufactures have to cut costs, possibly through job losses, lower pay, zero hour contracting or a move more automation.

It is going to be hard and if they do sell to countries inside the EU the temptation will be to move at least some manufacturing to somewhere inside the EU and of course the EU will be happy to take them in.

There might be some way for UK manufacturers to get cheaper materials which might offset some of the squeeze but that is unlikely to be that great.

So

Inports of foreign carpets will be 8% cheaper

UK exports remaining at same price to non-EU countries

But UK carpets now having to pay EU tariffs to export into the EU.

 

Galty

LOL but I bet that if I ask you why, you can’t explain why.

 

Mal

So you want to cause great damage to the country and harm to the people in it because your boss’s business deal fell through and you think wrongly that migrants are the cause for people getting low wages?

I mean is a hard Brexit your ‘win’?

In the neoliberal country that the people pushing so hard for Brexit want to bring about the things you want to stop are going to get worse not better.

 

An updated recap

Leavers want to leave because of they don’t like cuts in Public Service.

But Public Services have been adversely effected by UK right wing political polices that have NOTHING to do with the EU.

Leavers want to leave because of they think migration is a threat

But EU migration to the UK seems to be beneficial to the UK economy

Leavers want to leave because of the adverse EU laws imposed on the UK

But no leaver seems able to cite any of these adverse laws let alone explain why they are detrimental to the UK.

Leavers want to leave to ‘take back control’ because of ‘sovereignty’ and the fear of– ‘loss of identity’

But no leaver seems able to explain what those things are or actually mean.

Leavers want to leave because they think EU migrants drive down wages

Many studies show that this is mainly false and in the very few cases it happens it is down to UK government policies not the EU. Brexit is likely to bring about more exploitation not less.

Leavers want to leave because they blame the EU for UK companies moving abroad/outsourcing

Companies moving abroad or outsourcing is mainly down to right wing UK government policies and not the EU and Brexit is more likely to encourage companies to move away from the UK.

 

Hey Galty.
You and I go back quite a lot of years, and the one thing I know about you is this.
You know garbage when you read it!

 

Booze

LOL and I bet that if I ask you why, you can’t explain why.

 

It is very easy to call something garbage but if that thing is valid it is very hard to explain why it is garbage

Actually the inability to explain why it is garbage actually gives the thing validity

So I suppose I should thank galty and booze for backing me up…cheers

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This is bit like the Brexit debate

The remainers can explain why the leaver’s argument don’t seem valid but the leavers [1] can’t defend their ideas from those criticisms and [2] can’t explain why they think the remainers argument are not valid in any rational way.

Their inability gives the remainer arguments validity.