2020 Election

Some reforms are fine, but I don't see a revolutionary situation in the offing. New Athenian seemed to be calling for that. Count me out.

 

Coming from somebody who backs the corrupt authoritarian moron we currently have in the Oval Office, you have no standing to complain. He thinks told us the minute men occupied the airfields in 1776, and just today he told members of the "Squad" in to go back to the countries they came from, when three of them came from here. It's like having Archie Bunker in the White House, and your posts are of the same caliber.One good thing that we did was get the country out of the 2008 recession G.W. left us with, not to mention the one Herbert Hoover left us with before that.

 

Oh. So I did understand you.
I didnt really get that from his post. He seems to be calling for the removal of monied interests and corruption from politics.
America was not meant to be a kleptocracy. making a call to topple the kleptocracy isnt a call for revolution, it's a call to return this country to what it should be.

 

You need to make clear what you consider "kleptocracy". Somebody said once "property is theft". Do we agree? Overturning Citizens United v. FEC would be a good start, but that probably wouldn't excite the voters. But hey, we'll be able to see this play out in real time--see what goes over and what doesn't. To me, the prospect of another term of Trump is so appalling everything else is secondary.

 

No one is advocating a communist revolution lol. I'm not even sure why you would bring up the phrase property is theft. That sort of gross mischaracterization is better left to people who call Obama Obummer.

Overturning Citizens United is a great start and would excite a lot of people, I think.

I dont think we have a chance of getting a universal healthcare system without overturning Citizens United, actually. Or passing any sort of meaningful reforms. Monied interests have a stranglehold on our political system.

 

And those people already have an impressive war chest which they will launch to smear the Democrats as a bunch of radical socialists who want to fundamentally change our way of life and destroy everything we hold near and dear. Be ready for that.

Getting rid of the electoral college or at least the "winner take all" aspect of it should also be high on the list, but first things first.

 

New Athenian

It seems to me that it’s the right wing pundits and media that want people to see the left as ‘consumed’ with gender politics, ethnic politics, immigration politics and identity politics. And they shout that loudly to try drown out any talk from the left about tackling inequality and the malign influence of wealth.

Thing is that it seems to me that discrimination against people on the grounds of on race, gender or sexuality is more a matter of bigotry than politics.

As i've commented before the US has traditionally had two political groupings of the right – a right wing Republican Party and a right of centre liberal party the Democratic Party.

But within those groupings are factions and within the DP is a more left wing element that I think needs to be nurtured that’s what wealth fears and that why they are paying their lackeys to shout so much about radical socialist progressive extremists.

But going on what you have just said I’d say as manipulated as YOU are now – ask yourself why are the right shouting so loudly about how the left is ONLY about political correctness and identity politics and wants to take away peoples cars and stop cows from farting.

I’ll ask you the same questions I asked Panic when he said something similar - what would you suggest are good policies to address that?

A better distributive taxation system,

A better funded welfare system,

Universal healthcare,

Better funded public education system,

Better environmental regulations

Are you in favour of limit the wealth sponsored propaganda machine?

….what?

As a leftie I have many ideas and I’ve shared most of them here I was wonder what yours are (and Panic’s if he is listening)

 

So what though?
This is why Democrats are often regarded as weak and ineffectual, because they roll over and change positions when confronted with lies and misinformation
Why should they change their position over the opponent's false attacks?
I have a feeling they'll get more votes by standing strong and speaking truth in the face of misinformation

Of course I'm prepared for it, I've witnessed it my whole life and how buying into it has ruined this country.
Maybe I see it differently because we're from 2 different generations - my generation tends to see through those falsehoods (excluding 6 eyed shaman )and misinformation and we want candidates brave enough to speak truth to power

 

I'm wondering why you seemingly ignore these simple straightforward questions?

 

Can you make yourself a bit more explicit?

 

I was asking ************, but as he was saying it in response to your post i included that as well for clarity, so he doesn't have to read back.
2 people asked (you and Balbus) and he just skips over it. Unless im missing something

 

I suddenly feel so ancient, but I'm not thirty-one yet! I think that puts me in the Y2 category of millenials. I don't see it as "changing positions"--more like resisting the siren call of the "progressive" left to be drawn to untenable new positions out of sync with the rest of the country. Democrats are learning the wrong lesson from Donald Trump ⋆ 10z US politics
Unless something has radically changed recently, winning the presidential election will depend on moderate support. Trump has his 40-45% base sown up. A little less that one-quarter of Americans identify as liberal or progressive--up considerably from a decade ago, but still less than the 38% who self-identify as conservative.Poll: Percentage of liberals on the rise, but still trails conservatives Moderates (those voters who call themselves neither progressive nor conservative) make up over one-third of the electorate. They see both parties as overly ideological, view their "either-or " choices as misguided and wish politicians would compromise more. "Only 23 percent of moderates favor a larger government that provides more services (compared to 54 percent of liberals and 13 percent of conservatives); 37 percent favor a smaller government with fewer services (compared to 12 percent of liberals and 62 percent of conservatives). " Moderates: Who Are They, and What Do They Want? Nixon's advice to Republicans to bow to the right in the primary and run like hell to the center for the national election still holds, and Democrats need to do a parallel opposite maneuver to win--and winning is essential to bring about those wonderful progressive reforms.

I know this is frustrating for radicals, who by definition think we should stop pussy footting around and go to the root of the problem. And I admit that particularly with Hillary the Establishment seemed to have a lock on the process. Reality bites, but the hope for progressive change must be incremental. We do need some new progressive programs, especially comprehensive immigration reform and reversal of Citizens United. Let's concentrate on those.

 

Wait, what? I thought you were in your 50s or 60s lol

Anyways I was referring to the 2 progressive candidates. I know the others are just pandering to progressives and will back track. But Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders have no reason to cower when the right starts slinging mud and calling them socialists. They just need to speak the truth.

I really think we need to add universal healthcare to your list of urgent reforms. It's easy to think healthcare isnt a big deal or a pressing urgent issue until you find yourself getting a cancer diagnosis when you're in between jobs or when you're self employed and cant afford insurance on the market. Which is a situation so many Americans find themselves in. And I think your use of the word radical is a misrepresentation. Every other first world nation and many third world nations have universal healthcare. The privatized American healthcare system is the radical one. Universal healthcare is not radical, it is the right thing to do.

Also wanted to mention Medicare for all polls at 70%. People might not like the term progressive and might not self identify as such in polls, but progressive policies poll quite well

 

You know, that's a popular opinion, but I think it's a slippery slope.

 

Okie

Well I’m 58 hell I can remember watching the fucking moon landing LIVE on TV.

But I’m from outside the US and the thing is that the US political establishment (Republicans and Democrats) basically tried to purged left wing thinking from American society back in the 40-50’s and to a large extent succeed. That didn’t happen in Europe (although the CIA tried).

So what is seen as ‘radically progressive’ in a US context is seen as much more normal in much of Europe and is even supported by many on the centre right.

I find the reaction to the rise of progressives on the left in the US political establishment is interesting. The Republicans are out shouting communism and calling them un-American (Remember the House un-American activities committees) but also from the Democrat establishment we are getting milder rebukes about frightening the horses and wanting them to be less outspoken or even silent.

 

As I was reading this, I could hear Republican Conference Chair Liz Cheney on TV in another room railing against the Democrats and their "Socialist" agenda, attributed to the Squad of Four, which supposedly will spell doom and destruction to the American way of life and all we hold near and dear. The reality is, these latter day McCarthyites are expert at this, and their electoral success bears witness to it. The Squad has edged out Nancy Pelosi as the face Republicans want to give to the Democrat Party. I think a single payer national health plan like other western industrial countries have would be great. She says it would destroy Medicare.

My point is that it's controversial. Unless it's wildly popular, why risk it for this particular election, when the priority must be getting rid of the monster in the White House? My "urgent reforms" can wait until we accomplish that objective. Some form of government supported health care is popular; Biden is talking about building on Obamacare. Trump has talked about "repeal and replace", but so far all repeal with no replacement in the works. Democrats can run on that.

 

Biden is part of the problem when it comes to demonizing and misrepresenting Medicare for all. He has been on the campaign trail lately telling his supporters that Medicare for all will destroy Obamacare which is really disingenuous considering Medicare for all would replace private insurance entirely. There would be no need for Obamacare under a Medicare for all system.

I'm coming around to a public option as a transitional phase into a single payer system, so I think there are compromises to be made here. But I think Balbus', and my own point, is that some on the side of the Democrats seem to want to work against left wing policies and ideas completely by spreading misinformation using similar tactics that are used on the right.
I know there are some serious ideological differences in the Democratic party (which illuminates our need for a third party) but at the very least, moderate Democrats should be committed to truth rather than relying on spreading misinformation to destroy public faith in progressive policies.

 

As I have stated countless times. What are we after here? Are we trying to get rid of trump, or are we pushing a progressive agenda? An agenda that has no chance in a republican controlled congress.

 

Just on a sidenote: i pictured Okie around the same age as myself, somehow not more than 5 years younger.. And Balbus like in his late 40s or early 50s. Don't know why

Btw Okie: i think we are both millennials