Is it time to talk about guns?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Balbus, Mar 24, 2021.

  1. TrudginAcrossTheTundra

    TrudginAcrossTheTundra Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    "When we say a right is God-given, we are saying that despite the affairs of mankind, despite human history, despite what you may want or I may want, despite the realities of our society, certain qualities of life and living are the birthright of every living soul." livingasequals.com

    Anyway, I'm just asking what kind of right that is.
    Do you have an answer?
     
  2. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    Like most rights, it was given by a majority of humans in the legislature at that given time. I don't particularly like the fact that human life is ended before it's begun, however I do believe in expanded birth control methods such as free birth control for women.
     
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  3. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    Constitutional: 9th Amendment Right.
     
  4. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    In political science there is all kinds of talk about Natural Right. I haven't read up on women's natural rights; however, it's on my list. Right now, Rowe v. Wade is a 9th Amendment issue as far as I am concerned.
     
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  5. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    The statement "A women's right to an abortion" has nothing to do with a "God" as no "God" has ever been found to exist in a positive manner (it can not be proved). A "God" may be believed in, imagined, or thought to actually exist but as an argument based on a "God" is not acceptable in a court of law it has no meaning in the phrase "A women's right to an abortion".

    Further in the absence of man made laws a woman can do whatever she likes in regards to her body.
    As the 9th Amendment states that no restriction is put on the right to do anything not outlined in the Constitution unless specifically denied by the same, and as abortion is not specifically denied by the Constitution but is in fact upheld by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments as explained in Roe v Wade, your question is meaningless as on the one hand there are no "God" given rights and on the other unless there is a specific law denying a "right" you have a "right" to do anything you want.
     
  6. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    The Fourteenth makes the Nineth compulsory upon the states. Women have rights, and states have powers. No state power Trumps a woman's right to be equal to any man ... in any state. If we accept the antiquated Christian idea of God given rights, then White Christian Men will again start to demand subservience from people whom they regard as lesser citizens. It's an irony when these right-wing extremists insist that they have the right to own and use guns to defend themselves, from crime, or an invasion of Mexicans, or another invasion by United Nations Troops, or to stop some poor Black Kid from jogging through their neighborhood; when at the same time, they insist women have no right to defend their own personhood. A woman has the right under the Nineth Amendment to do as she wants with her own body, and to consult a Doctor about its medical issues. It is no different than the right wing extremists who demand that they have the right to do as they wish when it comes to COVID 19 vaccine. Their refusal of the vaccine has a direct nexus to the spread of disease to hundreds or thousands of innocent people. These right wing extremists who suffer from cranium in rectum syndrome should be required to see a doctor about it and in the mean time be denied gun ownership.
     
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  7. mcme

    mcme lurker

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  8. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    Point #1 says guns were not confiscated so nothing changed the stats.
    point #2 says assault weapons were banned but not confiscated so nothing changed in the stats.
    point #3 says education works and provides us with alternative conflict resolution methods.
    point #4 says some people consider anything an infringement on gun rights when in fact the supreme court has for many years held the government can use the Commerce Clause of the United States Constitution to regulate gun laws and gun ownership.
     
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  9. granite45

    granite45 Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    These assertions have no supportable data….about as unscientific as it gets. The ugly truth is that our society is awash in weapons and gun crimes are everywhere, in our town and undoubtedly yours also. When I was a young person, many people had sporting arms but not the guns of today with one design…to kill people. If more “people killers” were going to reduce gun violence, the rate of gun deaths in the US would be declining…it’s not.
     
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  10. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    100% of mass shootings are caused because someone had access to a gun.
    100% of all mass shooting do not involve a muzzle loading, single shot, black powder gun (like the founding fathers had laying around).
    100% percent of all laws do not eliminate 100% of all crime.
    100% of all gun laws are legal according to the Constitution.
    100% of all stupid memes are an insult to my intelligence.
     
  11. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

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    Amen Brother ...
     
  12. Toecutter

    Toecutter Senior Member

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    What the Devil !!


    1F1F8CFD-E5C3-4876-9E34-0B581474704C.jpeg
     
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  13. Toecutter

    Toecutter Senior Member

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  14. Toecutter

    Toecutter Senior Member

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    A Video that I think is very appropriate for this thread

     
  15. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    I've seen this before and I'd like to see a transcript because I think I heard Penn say that the colonials had just fought a two year war agaisnt a tyrannical state militia. If so, not so. They fought against a standing English army which was considered to be the best trained and disciplined army in the world at that time. There was no English militia to take away any of the peoples' guns.
    Further a militia is made up of the people, they aren't separate entities. The militia is the people, people as in civilians, not a standing army.
    The second was written in 1789 so that the standing army of the U.S., formed in 1784, could not restrict the right of the states to form their own militia armies.

    Penn and Teller are great magicians but they have no idea what they're talking about in this context.
     
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  16. Toecutter

    Toecutter Senior Member

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    @MeAgain

    What are your thoughts on the 2nd Amendment ?
     
  17. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    In my opinion? For what it's worth:
    The 2nd was written so that the states could form a well regulated civilian defense of society and the government of that society. Arms were to be allowed so that a well regulated militia could be formed from the citizenry as opposed to a standing professional federal army in support of that army, local state law, or the citizenry, if needed. Remember at the time the federal army could not respond to dangerous situations with the speed they can today, the standing army was small and local being formed in 1792 at Fort Lafayette, Pennsylvania, under Major Gen. "Mad" Anthony Wayne (I think I have that right). It couldn't be everywhere so well regulated state and local militias were needed.

    Well regulated means sanctioned by the local or federal government, under training and control by that government.
    There is nothing in the 2nd that guarantees the possession of arms for overthrowing any local or federal government, shooting at any elected or appointed officials of those governments, hunting, target practice, or the collection of guns as a hobby or profession.
    Additionally it only states that "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed" (in regards to a well regulated army). It doesn't state what type of arms, doesn't define what arms they are talking about, and doesn't prohibit laws directed at the type of arms permitted or banned.

    Under strict interpretation only well regulated militias have the right to bear arms.
     
  18. mcme

    mcme lurker

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    Fortunately for the citizens of the USA, your interpretation is completely wrong. That's not just my opinion. It's the opinion of the founding fathers as shown in recorded communications and also the Supreme Court, every time it's come before them. You ought to look up it's true meaning and intention some time.
     
  19. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

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    My opinion only differs in that in the opinion of the supreme court, to date, citizens may own arms and don't need to belong to a well regulated militia to do so. And, I may add, that ruling was not made by the supreme court until 2008 by a 5 to 4 vote. District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008) Prior to that decision the right to own arms was a collective right in connection with militia service.

    The supreme court does not recognize the right of citizens to use arms to overthrow their own government, does not allow unrestricted access to arms, does not allow the ownership of any type of arms, nor does it allow unrestricted use of those arms for hunting, target shooting, or collection.

    So my opinion is not completely wrong it only differs in regards to militia membership and that can change at any time if the supreme court so decides.
     
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  20. Toecutter

    Toecutter Senior Member

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