What is Religion?

But they champion the idea because they are scholars trying to understand religions and finding that traditional structural approaches get in the way.

How so? Shared reverence for the supernatural, sacred, or spiritual? Certainly spirtual applies applies to Buddhism, Taoism, and Vedanta. "Buddhism is a path of practice and spiritual development leading to Insight into the true nature of reality."What is Buddhism? | The Buddhist Centre.
Taoism would also qualify, and is certainly metaphysical in its emphasis on Yin and Yang, and it is "characterized by a positive, active attitude toward the occult and the metaphysical (theories on the nature of reality)." Daoism | Definition, Origin, Philosophy, Beliefs, & Facts And the Vedanta is full of metaphysical doctrines about samsara, brahman and atman. In the estimation of most scholars, Brahman qualifies as a divine entity, the ultimate reality underlying all phenomena, and is quite close to what I mean by "God".

"as well as the symbols, rituals, and worship that are associated with it”. Here too, there are plenty of symbols and rituals associated with Taoism, Vedanta, and yes, Buddhism (even worship, depending on the school of Buddhism involved.)

The "or" is important.

"Spiritual" can mean "relating to deep feelings spiritual or "not concerned with material or worldly things beliefs".worldly ; and "experiences that help (people) get in touch with their spiritual selves through quiet reflection, time in nature, private prayer, yoga, or meditation. " Spirituality That should be enough for his teachings to qualify. And of course Buddhism as practiced by most Buddhists is a far cry from the original. Mahyana Buddhism, Pure Land Buddhism and Vajrayana Buddhism are full of supernatural beings, as well as metaphysical doctrines and veneration of sacred objects.

 

Face it. Laymen have a distorted idea even of Christianity. But I doubt that the work of scholars of comparative religion would make that worse, and could even improve lay awareness by correcting misguided notions. Incidentally, Buddhism as practiced by ordinary people in Asian countries is probably far different from what the Buddha had in mind, just as Jesus would probably be shocked at the religion going on in His name. People making obeisance to the Buddha in Thai temples sure seem to be engaging in worship, possibly for the crass reason of accumulating good karma to shorten their time in the cycle of samsara. At least that was my impression watching them as a western observer. The late Huston Smith, professor of religion at Syracuse University and Berkeley and author of The World Religions talks about the difference between the Taoism as presented in his book and the Taoism he grew up with in China, especially "its almost complete submergence in auguy, necromancy, and superstition." Will trained western observers, trying their best to be objective, get it wrong? Possibly. Should we just write them off as hopelessly biased, or take the indigenous version at face value? I don't think so.

 

Functionalists contend that religion is what it does. That's the point.

Are you saying you don't know what the terms mean? Creed is a body of shared fundamental beliefs to which members of a religion supposedly adhere. A code is a shared set of moral norms for the members. Cultus is the set of rituals in which they engage as part of their devotional services. And Community, of course, is the body of believers joined together by their shared beliefs, norms and rituals.

 

It depends on what we mean by "spiritual". Some definitions relate it to a soul, which Buddhists reject. Or to a higher incorporeal world, about which Buddhists are agnostic. But spirituality can mean a sense of the sacred or deep veneration, a sense of awe or reverence. The feelings one gets looking at the Grand Canyon, the moon, or other natural scenes are sufficient to count as spirituality. Buddhists are spiritual in the sense of having reverence for a system of practice that frees them from the suffering of the world. "In Buddhism, there is a great deal that is sacred; in fact, certain forms of Buddhism encourage you to see everything as sacred."73 – Is Buddhism Religious, Spiritual, or Secular? - The Zen Studies Podcast
"Buddhists believe that the human life is one of suffering, and that meditation, spiritual and physical labor, and good behavior are the ways to achieve enlightenment, or nirvana."https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/buddhism Even solitude, being removed from the distractions of the world and focus on disciplining the psyche will qualify. No "worship" necessary.

Metaphysical: "relating to the part of philosophy that is about understanding existence and knowledge https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/philosophy. Getting a little more up to date than St. Thomas Aquinas, A.J. Ayer , in Language, Truth and Logic, defined it as any proposition about reality which could not be empirically verified. Modern science, following Popper, views it as any statement about reality that can't be empirically refuted. That would seem to Fit Taoism to a tee.“The Tao is the Order of Nature, which brought all things into existence and governs their every action, not so much by force as by a kind of natural curvature in space and time…The sage is to imitate the Tao, which works unseen and does not dominate. By yielding, by not imposing his preconception on nature, he will be able to observe and understand, and so to govern and control.” (Needham 1956, cited by Yang, 1951). And worse: "Taoism, however, with its contemplative mysticism and cultivation of magic turned the world into an irrational realm of spirits and demons. H.-G. Moeller,(2012) Encyclopedia of Applied Ethics (Second Edition), 2012
As for Vedantists, I think most scholars would agree that dharma, samsara, karma, atman, transmigration of souls, and reincarnation are metaphysical concepts. Buddhism, of course, rejects self and soul, but it does accept rebirth. The line between that and reincarnation is fine, to put it charitably.

Yes, it is always possible that western scholars in the field have it all wrong and you, a western non-scholar, have it right. Maybe so. I personally think Christianity went off track when Paul fell off his horse. I suspect that many clergy and congregants in Christian churches have Christianity wrong doctrinewise, but I'll concede that religion as a force in human affairs has more to do with what the faithful think it is than what I do.

Starting with symbols:
1.Taoist yin-yang.


2. Buddhist symbols:Buddhist Symbols |Guide to the Symbols of Buddhism


3. Vedantist symbols:





------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. Taoist rituals:
Temple rituals can be used to regulate ch'i and balance the flow of yin and yang both for individuals and the wider community.
Other rituals involve prayers to various Taoist deities, meditations on talismans, and reciting and chanting prayers and texts.BBC - Religions - Taoism: Rites and rituals of Taoism
Buddhism - Popular religious practices

2. Buddhist rituals vary with the school of Buddhism, but
Buddhism - Popular religious practices
7 Common Rituals in Buddhism - Buddhism Info
https://www.edu.gov.mb.ca/k12/docs/support/world_religions/buddhism/practices.pdf

3. Vedantist rituals and practices:
Ritual and Communal Worship – American Vedantist
The Bhagavad gita provides three of paths of devotion known as Bhakti, Janna and Karma yoga.
_____________________________________________________

Maybe not, but there is veneration--the next best thing.
Like Catholics with images of saints, Buddhist aren't supposed to "worship" the images, but they do venerate them. The statues of the Buddha speak for themselves.

As for Taoism,
"There are Taoist temples, monasteries and priests, rituals and ceremonies, and a host of gods and goddesses for believers to worship. These are as vital to the survival of Taoism as individual understanding and practice." BBC - Religions - Taoism: Religious and philosophical Taoism

In Vedanta, the Bhagavad Gita, of course, recognizes bhakti yoga, devotion to the various manifestations of the divine in various images of deities, as a spiritual path, and it is one taken by most Hindus.

 

You see it as different. I don't.

I doubt that most traditional Asian Buddhists see it that way. Samsara is a metaphysical concept, as is karma--all semantic hijincts and ratiocenation to the contrary.

lol. The same could be said about Greco-Roman Stoicism or Shinto, or Aristole's Metaphysics. Speculations about nature aren't the same as a scientific understanding of it.

Confining yourself to the texts always gives a distorted picture of what religion is about. Try
Taoism / Tao: Discussion Metaphysics Philosophy of Taoism, Tao. Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu Quotes Information Pictures
https://digitalcommons.tacoma.uw.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1001&context=access
Taoist Metaphysics

I've already explained that, but one more time:I'm using it in the philosophy of science sense of a proposition about reality that cannot be empirically refuted or falsified. Samsara, for example, is a metaphysical concept

Tell that to Swami Bhaskarananda. Hindu Concept of Reincarnation | Vedanta Society of Western Washington
See also
Karma and Reincarnation | Vedanta Society of Southern California

That's true. IMHO the Buddhist distinction is tenuous-- possibly and effort to reconcile the contradiction between non-self/non-soul and samsara by double talk. Maybe you can enlighten us. The best I can come up with is: Difference between Rebirth and Reincarnation | Rebirth vs Reincarnation.[/QUOTE]

 

You have a narrow view of prayer. Nontheistic Prayer doesn't have to be talking to God. It can be a way of talking to one's inner self and focusing one's thought on the spiritual.
Secular Seasons: Secular Celebrations & Humanist Ceremonies :: Graces & Invocations.
15+ Short Non-Religious Prayers For Thanks, Healing & Funerals | Awaken
Grateful without God: A secular Thanksgiving
An atheist/agnostic group I once belonged to always opened and closed with such a prayer. Of course the fundamentalist atheists in the group could be overheard mumbling about "praying atheists".Are Buddhists Also Atheists?

The word "worship" does bother me. (It's de Waal's, not mine). I prefer veneration or reverence.But a secondary dictionary definition of worship does include "to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion". That's the sense in which I use the term.

Yes, it does. Not all rituals are religious. But ritual is one activity that tends to be associated with religion. BTW, cluster analysts don't consider it essential. They try to look at the whole picture before making a classification. It's always a judgment call.

Yes it is. Revere: "to offer honor or respect to (someone) as a divine power."Thesaurus results for VENERATE The word comes from the Latin venerārī, which has the meaning "to worship," "to pay homage to," or "to hold in awe." Good enough for me.

How so? BBC - Religions - Taoism: Gods and spirits
"Westerners who study Taoism are sometimes surprised to discover that Taoists venerate gods, as there doesn't seem to be a place for deities in Taoist thinking.
Taoism does not have a God in the way that the Abrahamic religions do. There is no omnipotent being beyond the cosmos, who created and controls the universe. In Taoism the universe springs from the Tao, and the Tao impersonally guides things on their way.
But the Tao itself is not God, nor is it a god, nor is it worshipped by Taoists.
This may seem surprising as Taoists do use 'God-talk' to refer to the Tao.
Nonetheless, Taoism has many gods, most of them borrowed from other cultures. These deities are within this universe and are themselves subject to the Tao. Many of the deities are gods of a particular role, rather than a personal divine being and have titles rather than names. Books often describe the Taoist pantheon as a heavenly bureaucracy that mimics the secular administrations of Imperial China."

Ah, yes. But I imagine you don't consider it sacred and in a separate category with the rest of everyday life. Bhakti yoga requires treating work, however onerous, as a prayer or act of devotion, being mindful that you are treating it as such. If you're doing that with football and raising money for the poor, it's a spiritual act. It is, unfortunately, also not uncommon for people to make their work, making money, acquiring power, or indulging in sensual indulgence to be the the ultimate goal(s) of their lives. These are idolaters, guilty of shirk (in Muslim terminology), even though their idols don't have material form. This is Shirk Al-Asghar, (minor shirk), perhaps more dangerous than Shirk Al-Akbar (greater shirk) because it is less ostensible.

You've complained that Western scholars don't understand Eastern religions. But some have reversed the criticism for western atheist enthusiasts of a scaled-down version of eastern religion that neglects or misunderstands the eastern originals. "Taoism is often taught in the West as an atheist or agnostic philosophy, but in China and Taiwan particularly, Taoism still functions like any conventional religion, and not like an abstract philosophy of life.There are Taoist temples, monasteries and priests, rituals and ceremonies, and a host of gods and goddesses for believers to worship. These are as vital to the survival of Taoism as individual understanding and practice." BBC - Religions - Taoism: Religious and philosophical Taoism
Likewise, atheists who turn to Buddhism because it is godless may tend to regard the devotional aspects of Buddhism as corruptions of the pure original.This revisionist form of Buddhism is a western phenomenon "based on humanist, skeptical, and agnostic values, valuing pragmatism and (often) naturalism, eschewing beliefs in the supernatural or paranormal." Sam Harris has (perhaps arrogantly) argued that Buddhism should be taken away from Buddhists--cleansed of the "naïve, petitionary, and superstitious" trappings. And now the process comes full circle, with your complaints that scholars are mistaking Buddhism as practiced in Asia with this "pure" secular version. But the devotional aspects of Buddhism, and the dharma, and sangha are "paya for breaking the bonds of ego". Are Buddhists Also Atheists? You may consider that goal to be secular. I regard it as religious.

Nothing wrong with that. I think religion benefits from efforts to cleanse away the superstitious and irrational aspects, and subject the whole thing to critical analysis. Western scholars have brought this perspective to their studies. But atheism, by definition, is simply the rejection of god(s). Some atheists find that too austere to live by. An atheist friend posts on his website: " 'Atheist' tells you what I don't believe; 'humanist' tells you what I do believe." When atheists start building mega-churches, debating rituals like the "presentation of the child", formulating secular prayers, and holding weekly services, perhaps they are participating in a human experience that can be illuminated by comparison with theistic counterparts.

 

Functionalists claim that religion is as religion does. Religion meets certain needs and performs certain functions for individuals, societies, governments, and non-governmental elites. Whatever does that is religion, even though it might go under an officially atheist designation. I agree that that conception, though essentially valid, leaves out important details. Hence the value of cluster analysis.
Same with creed, code, cultus. What are they, how do they differ from secular creeds, codes and, cultus? Interesting question. I'd say the difference is in the magic words I added to mix: "spiritual, sacred, transcendent, metaphysical, or supernatural. But there are interesting similarities. The flag, symbol of our nation, is treated reverently, and people stand and pledge allegiance to it. In the famous lead flag burning case of Texas v. Johnson, the defendant was arrested for "desecration of a venerated object". Other countries have carried it further. "Godless Communism" has its metaphysical creed (the dialectical materialism of Marxism-Leninism), code (I will go where the Party sends me), cultus (e.g., May Day parades; veneration of the Dear Leader), and community (they don't call it "communism" for nothing. As the communists say, this is "not accidental."

 

I told you how I define it. The way philosophy of science defines it: a proposition about reality that can't be refuted.

You seemed to be implying that when you said that by studying nature Taoists can't be engaging in metaphysics.

It might have provided a plausible account of nature and reality back then, but it's metaphysics--i.e., not subject to falsification.

What video? Was this perhaps an ad on the same page as an article I cited?

Samsara:"the concept of rebirth and "cyclicality of all life, matter, existence", a fundamental belief of most Indian religions.Saṃsāra - Wikipedia
Steven Prothero, God is Not one, p. 136. Samsara "literally means wandering or flowing by, but in this context refers to the vicious cycle of life, death and rebirth."
G.D. Flood. (1996), An Introduction to Hinduism, Cambridge University Press
The vicious cycle seems to be missing in your definition , which makes it all seem psychological. What is your source?

These guys are presenting Vedanta as it is understood by practicing Vedantists , admittedly westerners. You're presenting an academic version from books;i.e. religion=a set of beliefs as understood by theologians and intellectuals who don't always agree.

I've told you a number of time how I'm defining it. See supra. It is metaphysical in that sense.

Don't bother. I think this has gone on long enough. I doubt that either of us will make further headway and will be wasting each other's time.

 

so you have never wished for anything, or expressed any hope that someone taken ill gets better?