Microsoft exists?

I was thinking about it yesterday and I came across an interesting concept. I am throwing it up here to get some responses. Many times people ask for proof that God exists. You point to a book (like the Bible, the Torah, or the Koran) and they respond that it isn't proof, it was just written by man. Most people want empirical evidence that God exists when they ask for proof. So here is my question: can we prove empirically that Microsoft exists?

Well, there is no person that IS Microsoft, there are only people that represent Microsoft. Can you see, touch, smell, taste, or hear Microsoft? No. So what other evidence is out there? Well, there is a lot of software that is produced by Microsoft. But if we look at it, the software is produced by people that are employed by Microsoft and then it is manufactured/copied by people that are, again, employed by Microsoft. So Microsoft has employees that do the actual work and produce the actual goods. Well, what about the origins of Microsoft? Is there anything that proves that Microsoft exists? Well, yes, we have articles of incorporation. Wait... that is simply a document that was written by men that states that Microsoft exists...

What I am getting at is that the concept of a corporation being an independent perpetual entity is completely abstract in notion. There is no empirical evidence or proof that the corporation exists other that the agents of the corporation claim that it does. So if we apply the same rigorous demands of evidence for a divine being must we conclude that Microsoft does not exist?

If you say no, please tell me why. If yes, then I recommend that you broadly and publicly pirate Microsoft's software and see what happens.

 

Microsoft is an abstract idea, true. It was created by Bill Gates (and maybe others?) as a way for them to make money. It only exists as an entity because we agree that it does (much like money itself). All the documents and transactions under it's name is proof only that we all agree that it exists; but it only exists in our head.

Are you saying the same is true for God?

 

Ugh, I HATE Microsoft...Comparing god to microsoft I don't think will win you any followers, at least not me...

But is it a comparison I will agree with ya on, that's for sure.

 

i never found god through the bible,it takes opening yourself to maybe he is there,asking IF he is there then show up!that is what i asked him,if you are there,if there is a god then show me.................i wanst left dissapointed,il be honest with you i never expected god to show up becasue i never really believed that he was there,if you ask for godmhe will be there,he will be real to you!

 

Have you conciddered the fact that maybe you believe in god, because it comforts you to believe in god?

Let me ask you something: how is your belief in god (based on your own *feelings* and no real evidence, other than your word) any diffrent from the person that believes invisable trolls are trying to kill him? What's the diffrence?

 

No, not at all. I was commenting on the level of "proof" that is demanded of God by several atheists I have spoken to. Would they conclude therefore that Microsoft or any other corporate entity does not exist? Both God and corporate entities fail these demanded proofs. The atheist then declares either "there is no God" or "I lack belief in God" due to a lack of "evidence." To be consistent it would appear that they would have to make the same claim of any corporate entity (or even some governments).

 

You can't make claim to something without evidence of it first, without evidence, it's a false claim... as in the example above, someone could claim that invisable trolls are trying to kill him.. but without evidence of this, everyone laughs at him and calls him a nut (and rightly so)... It's the same with god...

 

becasue jesus christ came to me when i was about to commit suicide.
i knwo that god is there because fo the gifts he has given me,the prophecies,visions,i have his spirit.these are not feelings these are gifts.i know he is there becasue prayer works,i know he is ther becaue iv known people who had cancer,then a few weeks later after being prayed for there was no trace.
proof of christ can only be found with faith.

 

You've not actully answered my question - what's the diffrence between you believing in god, and someone that thinks invisable trolls are trying to kill him? It's all in your mind, everything you have described is based 100% in your head

And what makes you so special that Jesus should save you? What about the thousands of other people that commit suicide each year? Not all of them are successful, and yet none of them claim to have been visited by Jesus.

As for this cancer claim, do you have any evidence of this? It's not that I'm calling you a liar, but maybe you're somehow mistaken or something? I'm not going to believe such an extoridnory claim until I have some hard evidence, confirmable evidence..

And again, what makes these people so special that god should cure them of cancer... what about all the other cancer sufferers in the world, many of who I'm sure are highly religous people...

I'm sorry, but I think that you've gotten yourself into such a position of dilusion that you're too scared to realise that it's all in your imagination...

 

About the cancer thing, well in Europe and the Americas the vast majority of people are Christian. Probably 100% of cancer patients in these areas get prayed for whether they want it or not. Cancer does occasionally go into remission and disappear. If every cancer patient gets prayed for then the people who do the praying get to claim that prayer is why the cancer went into remission. A common general method of curing cancer is Remission Induction Therapy when this method is used successfully the prayors will go ahead and claim that the treatment had nothing to do with it.

 

There are, in this world, spiritual people and non-spiritual people. The non-spiritual people will always bash the spiritual people. There is no argument; no library of proofs they will consider. They are in it for the 'come-back'. These are the ones who cry so very loudly that the church is filled with hipocrites. There are hipocrites in church. Yet even though these non-spititual people have set themselves as the anti-hipocritical, they will not enter and seek the truth for themselves. Non-spiritual people are truly outsiders, here: to them, spirituality is foolishness - they will not understand what benefits the rest of us simply because the things we have and know can 'only be discerned spiritually'.

 

Corporate entities exist, not because of the proof of their existance, but "Because Man CREATED It" for the sole purpose of making life for themselves happy ... similarly "Man CREATED God" for the sole purpose of making life for themselves have meaning since they lack the ability to look within themselves to find, or search for the truth they seek. It's easier to look outside than inside ... at least you can explain the expansive distance between you and God with relative ease than the greater expanse still that lies on the inside ...

Excuse me ... I'm sorry for stating my own opinion at the expense of others feelings ...

Darrell

 

im not any more speacil than any of those ppl that went thorugh with it,the difference is that i called out to god and he came!
god is a genmtleman he wont push into your life if you dont want him there,you dont want god there,he wont be

 

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.. what's the diffrence between you knowing 'god', and the guy who thinks invisable trolls are trying to kill him... It's a simple enough question...

I think that you're scared to answer it because you know there is no diffrence - the idea of invisable trolls is silly, right? But then, based on the fact that you know god via the same means as the guy and the trolls, then surely god must be a silly idea too?

Mind you, I realise everything I'm saying is pointless because you no doubt think that I'm the devil or some sort of demon or something, sent to make you lose your faith... I'm not, I don't care what you believe (heck, your belief in god saved your life, that's gotta be a good thing, right?), I just want to point out to you that just because you believe something, that does not make it true...

PS, you said you called to god, and he came.. what about all the muslims in iraq that called out for god to save them as the US invaded? Did he just ignore them? Or all of the people in the WTC who no doubt prayed like buggery to try and survive the disaster... god just ignored them too, right?

 

My point is, Microsoft is a mental/legal construct that exists only because we agree that it does. That is, it exists in our heads (and on paper, I suppose). You are comparing it to God, so if your comparison is followed through to the end, it seems to say that God is a mental construct. He exists in our heads, and on paper, but not in the "real" world.

So the Microsoft analogy fails, because you clearly don't believe that. It fails especially because of this major difference: everyone knows humans created Microsoft. No one is out there saying Microsoft has existed before everything else and was simply discovered by Bill Gates. However, lots of people say God existed for all time (before time even) and actually created the world. That is a huge difference, the latter being a much more extraordinary claim.

 

That is true. It only exists because the law allows it to.

I was not comparing God to Microsoft. As you point out, there are very striking differences between the two. The question has to do with the *argument* used by atheists. "There is no evidence for X so we must assume that X does not exist." X could be God, but in the context of evidence (or lack thereof) Microsoft could also be X. My question is, then, is the atheist prepared to assert that Microsoft does not exist?

If that was the implication of the question, then I am sorry. That was not at all the intent. I am trying to address the nature of the atheistic argument, I am not at all trying to compare God to, or imply that God is at all like, Microsoft.

It is a far more extraordinary claim, yes. But this misses the point of my question. Again, I am not attempting to make an analogy that God is somehow like Microsoft or that Microsoft's existence is analogous to the existence of God. I am simply trying to focus on the atheist's objection to the "lack of evidence" as a sound argument for denying God's existence or claiming "lack of belief."

 

God created man and corporate entities.

It's about recognizing God within you and outside of you. Inside you you identify as yourself, however the expanse within is part of God too. The outside world is to teach you that you are not all that is- that they outside world flows into you. There is no distance between you and God.

 

That's just your own opinion ... Mine is Man created God and corporate entities.

Guess what ... you're entitled to your opinion ... no questions asked ...
Gues what again ... so am I ...

Darrell

 

It's not only my opinion, it's a fact. However, your opinion is only an opinion- in the sense that God created corporate entities in the minds of men and placed knowledge of God within the minds of men (of course, some people think that they have come up with the concept of God within themselves- they do not acknowledge that it was placed there by God).

You are entitled to the future opinions you will have, but it is not the opinion you currently hold.

 

Is there a new definition of "fact" that I don't know about here?