Capitalism & Morality

Sorry, I was drinking before/while I was typing last night so some of the things I said need clarification.

I didn't mean morals are the sole difference between humans and the animal world.

Firstly, I should have anticipated that this conversation would involve as much philosophy and theology, as it would politics.

The whole good and evil thing is out of my logical boundaries. I have to step into the whole Christian tree myth/analogy and how that supports my prior, inebriated thesis.

You can take the 'we'll still be human' argument as far as you want. When is a human a human? I don't think either of us wants to go down the abortion-ist road.

I don't really read that much philosophy anymore. The only 'real' philosophy book I read was one of Bertrand Russel's. Didn't really teach me all that much. I shed a tear for Socrates though, again.

All I meant with morals is that they are needed for 'us' to live in equilibrium. The right 'top' moral, let us call it, is required to be in everyone's head so that its following components solve out the social/economic/political problems of the time and future.

It is a complicated argument, hopefully I'll be able to write a book on it sometime in college.

 

Hopefully you will be able to write a book on it one day. Though, we hope the book is a tad more coherent than your posts.

So far you have only pussyfooted around substance.

 

Here's the most logical moral standard possible:
interfering with the rights of another person/living creature = immoral. Obviously, we have to assume that animals have the same rights as we do, even if they may not be able to take advantage of all of them (free speech). Because our capitalist system is so keen to stealing our personal freedoms, and because it has total disregard for the environment and the rights of the creatures living in it, I have to say that capitalism is pretty fucking immoral.

 

If anyone knows better, please correct me.

I feel as if capitalism in its pure form is too mechanic for the diverse nature of man. Some people are less greedy than others, they focus more on other aspects of life other than production, labor and savings.

Where do the artists fit in a capitalist society? The products of writer, musician and artist do not fit in the triangle of land-owner, capitalist and proletariat.

 

They fit in just fine, artists are free to sell their wares just like anyone else. Ever been to a bookstore? A record store? A movie theatre? An art gallery? A video game store? There is a huge market for artistic media, if the artist is any good they can make a very good living, in fact many artists manage to become quite wealthy, and if they aren't very good nobody wants to buy their crap and they need to find a better way to make a living.

Capitalism isn't a rigid, mechanical system with only three elements. It's a fluid and open system that is in a constant state of change and evolution. A capitalist society is made up of many many diverse people, not just land owners, capitalists(whatever you mean by that, I assume managers) and proletariats. Human beings aren't ants, every person is unique in their strengths and weaknesses and what they are capable of contributing to society. Some people are good leaders, some are creative, some are tough and strong, and some are very intelligent. A doctor probably can't fix a car and a mechanic probably can't cure disease. A manager probably can't work the complex machines of a modern factory, and a skilled technician probably couldn't manage the complexities of running a successful business. Capitalism requires people to work together just like anything else.

If you find yourself an unskilled laborer and feel like a slave, it is nobody else's fault. If you want to get out of that situation you need to educate yourself, train yourself, or find something you are good at. You don't have to be lucky to be successful in a capitalist society, you just need a little ambition and determination. If you just don't like to work, well, tough titties, nobody likes a leech, society doesn't just run itself you know.

 

Actually, the point behind society is that it does run itself. Remember Adam Smith? He said, 'let the market be'.

I divided the population into three basic 'classes' for reasons of simplicity. The fluid motion you speak of is the greed and in some cases, the passion of men. That is what drives capitalism. If everyone does their own thing, labor will for the most part, always find work.

Note how I said in the above post, capitalism in its 'pure' form. Capitalism today is not running the way it is intended to. It is controlled, I'm sure you could ask Pressed_Rat about the particular mechanisms and organizations that 'control' modern-day capitalism.

I admit, mechanic was the wrong word. And I also admit that I overlooked the demand for artistic wares; at the time I was thinking in extremes of poor artists like Van Gogh, not todays cartoonists.

Perhaps I'll come back when I have learned more. Though I think that will be a long time.

 

Pure Capitalism treaded workers even worse then the Soviet Union. Unsafe working conditions and slave wages. Since the only way workers ever got ahead was taking up arms and holding the means of production hostage, Capitalism and workers rights don't mix.

 

I was hoping there would be at least some interest in the papal encyclical I cited before. Maybe this will elicit more of a response:

http://arago4.tn.utwente.nl/stonedead/tv-series/sketches/fc-30/merchant-banker.html

 

Psy Fox. We have NEVER had pure capitalism.

The capitalism you speak of was pre-capitalism. Colonialism/imperialism followed. And now it is different.

This is a gross over-simplification, missing out the socialist/communist threat to capitalism throughout the 18 and 19th centuries. But we have never, ever had pure capitalism.

Huck Finn, thanks for your links. I didn't read the entirety of the papal one because I was slightly inebriated, I'll try and do so this time.