One question

i have no doubt we'd want them out.

However, far more deaths would occur if the US just upped and leave.

How many post war deaths can you attribute to the US? Most seem to be because terrorist idiots are killing iraqis.

 

The UN resolutions are quite an eye opener. Before the war I was rather undecided until I read them. Basic premise:

-Iraq must provide a list of ALL WMD programs, locations, and technicians within x number of days (I think it was like 30 but cant remember at the moment) to the UN secretary general. The same goes for all ballistic missiles with a range of over 100 kilometers.

-Iraq must cooperate with, and aid the weapons inspectors in identifying and properly destroying all of the above weapons under international supervision.

-33 percent of Iraq's oil revenues must be spent in repartations to Kuwaitis who had lost family members, homes, etc, and in aid for the Iraqi people. The UN will also send in aid for this purpose, which must be distributed appropriately.

-Iraq must allow coalition aircraft to patrol the northern and southern stretches of Iraq (operations Northern Watch and Southern Watch) without interference

All this was signed by Saddam after the war.

Saddam complied with none of this. So the UN issued another resolution essentially saying 'do what you agreed to do'. He didnt.
After that it mostly came down to every three months or so, the UN would issue another resolution saying 'you need to start using all this foriegn aid as you're supposed to.' In fact, the vast majority of the UN resolutions after 1992 were telling him to pay attention to the needs of his people. Instead he smuggled in arms and made underground bunkers.

In 1998 Saddam kicked the weapons inspectors out. What did the UN do? They issued a resolution saying 'let them back in.' He didn't. What did they do then? Nothing. Saddam proved to himself and to others that the UN didnt have the balls to back up their own mandates.

So along comes Bush and the UN demonizes him for having the guts to take action.

For anyone who wants to educate themselves on the topic, I highly suggest un.org. The security council resolutions havn't been tempered with by greedy war mongering oil whores, I swear.

 

I'm not avoiding the question, I'm seeing how long it takes for you to go over.

 

I'm not. I wont enlist. I choose not to be part of a war that I don't believe in. I'm leaving the country anyway, but what about you. You claim that our troops need so much support but are planning on supporting the cause your screaming about?

 

Wow, I actually have some respect for you now. I've always wondered why people who profess to hate our government so much dont just leave. Now I've found one.

One and counting...any takers?

 

Yeah I know I'm not going to change all of america, let alone the mind of a sick jackass so why stick around. But its people like Mavrick who sit and cheer from the sidelines as people are being shot, people are being blown to bits, and they just sit there cheering, not doing thier part to the war they love so much. Its cowardlly

 

Well Maverick is 16, so he can't exactly join the army.

 

No but he can take his parents with him to the recruiting office and sign up

 

Heh, cuz some of us have a conscience, and hope to help change the government we dislike so much. Anyway, to me country and government are not inseparable, and so I can easily hate a government while not hating the country. There are plenty of countries that I like, but I don't like all their governments (in fact I don't like most of them).

 

If you're willing to get involved and try to change the government to something you think is better, then I have no problem with that. I may not agree with you but I respect people who are willing to work for their beliefs.

What I can't stand is people who, as DarkLunacy says, sit on the sidelines, and bitch about what they dont like. I say get involved and fix it or try to find someplace better.

 

As in go "over", I meant insane, bonkers, crazy.

 

They are our fathers, brothers, etc. before they go to boot camp, then they get brainwashed into the whole kill or be killed mentality. Maverick, you can't say were not killing innocent civilians purposely without being there, war is so horrible and so confusing that you do crazy things. Look at vietnam...Soldiers (Who in no way are to blame) were so confused and so scared they killed little kids, and torched entire villages full of innocent viatnamese, and this happens in war, and i'm sure things like innocent civilians being killed on purpose in Iraq are happening.

Peace and Love,
Dan

 

I have a human being to disproove that mentality.

 

Because you know they are no longer the same people after boot camp. They are evil predators who will kill the first child they see. Come on, do you actually know anyone who has served in the military? Boot camp doesnt brainwash you. It teaches you skills and discipline, without which there would be no army.

No, no Americans are killing innocent civilians on purpose. Anyone who does is immediately court martialed.

 

I've Said it before But my post was ignored ,Maverick Your Full of Such Rightous Fury for those that Died in 9/11 and Proudly display the moment on your Posts , What i dont get is that you seem to Think that America as a nation was attacked for no good Reason at all Save that Those Crazy Evil Terrorist's just Dont Like the Star's n Stripe's..I'm Sorry to Say Your Country has Murdered many Million's of Innocent people in the Last Few Decade's and Commited a Great many WarCrime's..Where is the Justice the U.S. Government so Swiftly hand's out to any that Stand in Their Way For all Those Murdered by YOUR Government ,We're talking Million's here...a Thousand people a Week where Carpet bombed for year's in North Vietnam only a little over 30 year's ago..Some Part's of the Country are still to this day a Wasteland..and for What?..to Stop those Damn Commies!?..when Most of America at the time didn't know what the Word or Ideal meant. Does your Sympathy and Morality only extend to those with an American passport?!?.

 

US-backed leaders commited plenty of atrocities and it's horrible, wrong, and immoral, there's no getting around that. But if we didn't and just allowed communism to extend to Asia and South America, there is a realistic possibility that a nuclear war could have occured, and billions of people would have died, and you might very well be living under communism right now.

 

Millions? In the last couple of decades? Can you prove that? I find that hard to believe, especialy since you say they're all innocent civies.
Anything before Desert Storm has no real relevance to any argument, since we have changed tacticaly. Anything before Vietnam is entirely irrelevant.
By the way, we went into Korea and Vietnam to stop those "Commies" from killing innocent civilians. We won in Korea, saving many millions of lives. Unfortunatly, in Vietnam, we pulled out, and two million South Vietnamese were slaughtered by the North Vietnamese Communist invasion. We did a bad thing by pulling out of Vietnam. And we're the murderers, riiight.
And to say that we didn't have 9/11 coming, you are dead wrong. Nothing we have ever done warrants something like 9/11.

 

Prove it?..I didn't think i had too ,It's common knowledge..or at least i thought it was..Maybe not so Much Stateside, what with the bad Press n All..do an Internet Search and you'll find What i Quoted soon Enough. and to be Honest ,Looking at Capitalism and Communism on paper ,i'd take Communism Any Day,Real Communism that is..not the corrupted Mess the Soviet's Eventually thought prudent to Spread..i'm not denying any other super power's commited mass Murder..i'm saying SO did America...and People Dieing before your Little relevence TimeLine DO matter Despite whatever Twisted little reasoning you have fashioned for yourself...It's easy for you to Sit back and Agree with the Little war's your government Wage but until you've experienced the Horror and Grief of What it is Really like you Shouldn't be so Quick to Arm's...As a Race we Really need to Start finding some new idea's About how to Solve our Problem's Rather than you blew us we're gonna blow you up..The Mentality of Most World Governments is that of a 6 year old school Bully.

America Should have Never gone into Vietnam in the First Place ,Visit the Country and see what The Damage is for yourself ,Visit the Musuems dedicated to the Destruction caused by the War..they're There.

I Never said America Had anything Coming on 9/11 ,I'm Saying There are REAL Reason's For What's happening around us Today...It's not about Deserve ,that has Nothing to do with it...nor do i think Anyone deserves to be attacked for any reason whatsoever...i wanted to highlight the fact that The people who Flew Those Planes Where Fanatical and Driven Enough to carry out these act's ,and it was Not just Religous Fanatacism ,They Where Just as politicly motivated as Any Other Army that use's Force, and i still dont think Most people Know the Real Reason why.

 

I find it hard to believe that anyone can take communism over capitalism, on paper or in real life. How would you like to share a house with 5 other families, sharing a kitchen, bathroom, and living room? Not being able to buy or sell anything, or having any choices about the food you eat, the car you drive, etc.? I think Containment and all of the shit that the U.S. did during the Cold War was necessary. It was bad and horrible and immoral, and we are still suffering the consequences of those actions, but all the same they were necessary to stop the USSR.

The people who crashed those planes into the WTC were driven by nothing other than religion, it's a domino effect that began with the creation of the state of Israel. One thing led to another and this is what we get - terrorists who hate us for a reason that dosen't matter anymore. The fact is that they do. People like Arafat use terrorists as political tools yes, but at it's core the problem that we have is one of religion, pure and simple.

 

OK Max - I can't deny that the creation of an Isreali state is the roots of terrorism towards America today. That is 100% fact. So then why are we creating even further problems? The REAL solution and most effective method in trying to combat terrorism and reduce support of current terrorists would be to put a HUGE effort towards creating a Palestinian state - not invading an Arab nation. Oh sure, I saw the press conference with Sharon and Bush discussing this possibility, but the fact is that we have ignored the Arabs and done nothing but attack them under the current administration. At least Clinton made some progress. Could you even imagine Sharon and Arafat in the same room together today?