heart feelings verses brain.

hi, i just read the thread where the lady wanted advice on how to calm down over her abortion, i am so torn inside myself. let me say now, I i dont want to get into any fights over this, truly. my feelings are this.

i would never try to have abortion banned, because i know that there will allways be women who truly need it. i could have died having my baby, and was subtly advised by many people to abort before i got much further along, i didnt and was lucky in that my condition could be controlled by lots of drugs, which was very unpleasent and i had 9 months of hell. i also recognise the damage caused to women by backstreet abortions and in the end its got to be better to lose one life than two. i also believe in freedom of choice, i would hate to be forced to do anything i didnt want to, especially something like have a child to bring up if i didnt want it.

However, i believe in personal responsibility, Ie contraception, and if this fails, in my opinion adoption is better than abortion. i feel it is selfish to say...oh id hate to know my child would call someone else mummy, but hell, you'd rather kill it? i belive human life is valid from conception. in my mind a newborn baby is no different to a fetus. the argument that oh, the fetus cant live without the mother and so is invalid is rubbish. neither can a newborn live without aid. to kill a baby or let it die through inaction is murder, so why is an unborn baby different? well frankly it isnt.

i hate abortion, but i dont hate those who do it and i dont lecture them. many of my friends have had abortions, and one stayed at my home the night before and cried with me. i do this because i love these women, is it really possible to truly care for someone and yet feel that what they are doing/have done is murder. its so hard, it makes me cry to think about it and im a practical person on the whole.

I know people feel very differently from me, but i have studied pregnancy at college and university and the more i learn the more appalled i am that people do it for convienience, there are some cases where there is no other choice i know, but that doesnt change what they are doing, even if they have no choice. when i hear people are having abortions i want to beg them not to, but i dont because of this belief that i have in freedom, but is that really a freedom we should have just because it would be easier not to have a baby right now? i just wondered if anyone had any ideas as to how i can reconsile all this within myself.

Peace be with you all and thanks.

 

Some of the keys to classify something as living or nonliving is movement and growth/development. A fetus moves and kicks around in the womb (just watch any ultrasound!). The umbilical cord brings nutrients to the fetus that helps it grow and develop. How anyone can say that a fetus "isn't alive" is beyond my grasp.
I agree with what you say. It's not just something you do out of convenience or to escape responsibility and embarrassment. People should be responsible enough to use a condom or a pill when doing that! Come on! It's not that hard to take a pill. Excluding rape and extremely awful cases where the woman is going to die while having the baby, there would be no need for abortion if people would take responsibility!
Shouldn't one think about what that creates before they do it?

 

i'm not trying to debate the abortion issue, but i think what i have to say might clear some things up.. or i guess i want to make some distinctions in terms of our rhetoric.

so in response to this part:

i would like to point out that the issue is not whether the fetus is or is not alive.. obviously, there is some sort of life there, as it is a bunch of living cells. but more needs to be said in terms of a distinction about what one means by "living." many things are living. peas and carrots are living things; plants move slowly towards the light source which brings them nutrients "that helps it grow and develop" (the same critera for life that the poster above gave). but a plant is not a sentient being. butterflies and turtles are alive and also living.. but when one squishes an ant, it is not considered murder. but "life," at least in terms of pro/anti-choice rhetoric, is different from simply being a bundle of living cells that move and grow. life in this sense refers to something that has developed a bit more... perhaps a creature who can feel pain, or is sentient. yes, i understand that this is a potential human life, not an already living cat or buffalo... but if something is simply living, then more needs to be said. if one truly believes that it is "murder" to kill anything living, because it is a living thing, one would never squish a bug or eat (either a veggie or meat) among many other things.

that needed to be said because this is a very serious, tender and controversial issue. i just felt that purple's claim about not understanding, "how anyone can say that a fetus isn't alive," does not address the sensitivity of this issue. one can go so far as to say that it trivializes human life, as her critera equates the life of a human (or a fetus) to that of a flea or an amoeba.

and then there's another part of her post that i would like to address, i promise i am not trying to be contentious:

you are overlooking the fact that these methods fail... neither a condom nor hormonal birth control is 100% effective. even the morning-after pill isn't 100% effective, should the condom break or a pill is forgotten.

furthermore, some individuals have latex allergies, and use sheepskin condoms which are not as reliable. due to inadequate sex ed in high schools (when many become sexually active for the first time) many do not know how to put a condom on properly (making it more inclined to break). they are also not taught proper "condom care" ie: no extreme temperatures, check the experation date, and no friction. a teenager might hide condoms in the car so the parents don't find them, but then the extreme heat (or cold) can render the condom ineffective. while condoms are often given out for free at places like planned parenthood, some people want to be extra responsible and desire to go on the pill... but many are uninsured and thus don't have access to hormonal contraception. sure, some lucky folks can get it for free for a little while, but many youths (and adults!) dont have the same access. let's revert to stereotypes for a second, and use the example of a 15-year old black girl living in rural mississippi, where racism is still rampant today. she is not going to find free birth control pills in her state, whereas a white girl will.

others still have bad reactions to hormonal birth control, and cannot be on the pill (or depo, etc) for health reasons, such as a risk of blood clots, depression, etc. etc. the list of bad reactions to the pill is very long. there are tons of threads in this forum alone posted by girls who have had bad reactions to birth control. ignorance is prevalent here in the states, and many people do not know when the pill becomes effective after you take it, many do not know that it has to be taken at the same time every day, and many do not know that forgetting to take just one pill can result in pregnancy.

this is less significant, but it deals with inadequate sex ed, so i'll say it anyway... people are not informed and think that "sex myths" are reality. some people honestly believe that you cannot get pregnant the first time you have sex, or that you cannot get pregnant while you are menstruating. and there is a significant std epidemic with women having anal sex to 'preserve their virginity' or because they dont want to risk a teen pregnancy, and not using a condom (and ending up with aids or herpes, though their womb remains fetus-free). disenfranchised youths likely do not have computer access at home, and many school and computer libraries restrict access to pages about sexual education.

that just needed to be pointed out, because plenty of responsible people get pregnant, and not everyone can use a latex condom or hormonal birth control. this issue is not as simple as accusing someone of being irresponsible.

 

I didn't say they were 100% affective, but they're more affective than not using anything at all.

 

you're right, they are more effective than not using anything... but, you said that if people were responsible, then abortions would not need to occur (aside from cases of rape or health complications)... and people who are responsible do get pregnant. so i just wanted to point that out.

that's a real important factor when discussing abortion, especially since a lot of people on the fence about the issues think that abortions are more acceptable for responsible couples (say, the condom broke or a pill wasn't effective because you're on antibiotics) but they think that a woman should maintain the pregnancy as a sort of "punishment" for her irresponsible behavior (such as a woman who has multi-partners and never uses any form of birth control)... but the women who are responsible tend to make better parents than those who were irresponsible. just basically in line with the thought that if you don't take care of yourself, you will have a much harder time taking care of you+baby. and then there are correlations with higher education and higher income for women who do use birth control. i'm not saying that you have to be intelligent and rich to be a good parent, but it helps if you are able to afford food and clothes and are able to teach your kid how to paint or play the drums.

 

People who have had all kinds of surgical procedures go through a post surgical depression. I have been depressed after C sections, as well as urinary tract surgery. I could imagine that the emotional impact of an abortion would be even stronger. Howver, no one is saying that no one should ever have surgrery of any kind because they will be depressed afterward.

Every womyn needs to make up her own mind about her pregnancies. A womyn being depressed after an abortion procedure does not mean that that was the WRONG choice for her.

Hell. my C section saved my life, I still wished I hadn't had to have it, and was MAD at the doctor who performed it for quite a while. In the end I realized it was the best thing to do.

We can't judge whether abortion was the right choice for a womyn based on highly emotional responses immediately after the procedure.

 

i apreciate your comments but my question was really how i can come to terms with these clashing opinions i have, any thoughts?

 

I agree with a lot of your opinions. I can only offer the advice of keeping them to yourself. While it is hard to bite your tounge, you must when it comes to the decision of a fellow woman. I did not even go through the whole thread you mentioned because I wanted to ask a lot of questions and push the issue of adoption.

I too, strongly believe in the freedom of choice we have. But I also believe it is abused and it is very hard for me not to lecture girls who use it because they were not responsible with birth control. So in order to keep from causing more harm than good, I keep my mouth shut.

 

Well I tend to go with brain over heart myself. Logic before emotion.


And personally, I don't want to see unnecessary amounts of abortions either. But I happen to think that we need to solve the issue of what is causing these abortions rather than just banning them altogether. Maybe if we tried to improve conditions for low-income families, or improve sex education, or help families so that both adults don't have to work...we may see a fall in the number of abortions that take place in the US. Why not make it better for everyone rather than force people to bring unwanted children into the world that are at risk of being neglected, hungry, poor, bounced from foster home to foster home, etc...

There are studies (which many pro-lifers want to jump to discredit) suggesting a lowered crime rate in correlation to increased abortions. It isn't hard to see how less unwanted children inthe world could correlate to a reduction in crime. In households where parents don't actually (or cant because of working multiple jobs) parent, their children are more likely to get into trouble, to become criminals. That's the logic, anyways, and it seems to make sense to me. And I have read articles both agreeing and disagreeing with those conclusions, but it is common sense to me. I knew plenty of kids who's parents were never around, and I saw how they behaved...in fact I liked hanging out with them because I could get away with more then too.

Here is a good article:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/416056.stm

It is an older article, but there have been new studies into the idea, Steve Levitt is an economist/statistician who claims to have found links between the two. He has actually found a lot of interesting trends in American behavior and published a book recently. Freakonomics (saw it on the Daily Show - love that show!) Here's the guys bolg: http://www.freakonomics.com/blog.php

 

EXCELLENT points, Sera! I totally agree with everything you said.

 

At the heart of all of this is one persons concept of the "Specialness" of human life and when that "Specialness" is embodied in a fetus,vs another persons concepts of those same values.

One can make a reasonable argument that that special condition starts with conception,but one could also make the argument that the special condition is more along the lines of viabilty,or perhaps some other point in fetal development.

As long as both sides have valid opinions it is unfair for one to force their opinion on anothers life decision.(within a reasonable range)

This is especially true when the concept of human specialness is such a vague concept to begin with,and the consequences of carrying a child to term are so great. As a human,of course I want to respect human life,but I live in a world where there is an enormous amount of disrespect for human life.Many of the people who are forced to make the decision of aborting a fetus know exactly how much disrespect there is for women,and unwanted children and a host of other situations.Much of it by the same people who claim to be doing the opposite.

 

ummm....what you say here doesn't allow for the fact that the very act of becomng a mother may at times engender responsiblity within that indvidual...people change and grow with experience, to say that a responsible person is necessarily going to make a better parent ignores the fact that we humans change and grow with experience and sometimes the experience of becoming a parent can make people less self centred and selfish and therefore more responsible. Also there are plenty of people who are cnsidered in our society to be responsible upstanding members of the community but who are cold heartless money grabbing, social climbing(social drinking), cold, unloving examples of parents...just cause they pay their bills and use contraception does not mean they are necessarily going to be better parents than the dole bludging(poor), pot smoking(has different levels of what is acceptable drug use than what the law says), contraception forgetting individual down the road...
anyhow I think it probaly happens sometimes like you said, that an irresponsible person makes a bad parent, but sometimes it doesn't...

welcome to the real world...a complicated messy place for your brain if I ever came across one!!!
but seriously it really only matters what you think and if everyone remembered that then no one would be telling anyone else what to do....

 

Sometimes. But I have seen, more often than not, that someone who is irresponsible and selfaborbed before they have a child remain irresponsible and selfabsorbed. And that isn't a good place for a baby to be in.

 

hmm.. I'm the other way around. I have seen, more often than not, people who were once irresponsibe have a child and become very mature and responsible parents.

I guess it's different for everyone. It's a tough call.

 

I see a LOT of parents. Educating parents is what I do for a living. Rich, college educated parents are just as likely to be selfabsorbed, and not want to make changes after a birth as many teenagers are. In fact, many of them want ways to "get my life back." Something that just doesn't happen after you have a child.

You have a NEW life, but you never can go back to the way your life was before you had the child. I see a lot of selfishness, most of the time parents are just too absorbed with "convenience" and what they can do to make things "easy" on themselves, they forget there is a needy human infant involved.

It is quite disturbing.

 

I don't see as many parents as you, for sure. I was just throwing in my two cents.

 

I think you just summed up what I was trying to say...just that I also think irresponsible people are much like the ones you are talking about...

oh dear...I think most people are like that! It is something that I think all people deal with as their life changes either due to children or other factors and sometimes people do not adapt..
*wanders off feeling a bit sad*

 

There are always people who have their children change the way they do things. I just wish it were a larger percentage of the population.

 

well, now, that's just not the entirety of th edepression issue and i think you trivialize the fullness of the pain suffered by many women after this "procedure." it's not just the depression of surgery! for heaven's sake, post operative depression doesn't last 10 years or more. my mother had to abort for an ectopic pregnancy and and still gets in a funk over it and that was 20 years ago. her best friend had two abortions and and is still in counselling for this today. not all women place the same amount of value on their fetuses and some will not be depressed at all. but don't try to tell women that it's the same as your c-section and ut operation depression. it's not. that's just shoveling shit and calling it sugar. sometimes women just have to do what they have to do to survive, and make tough decisions. but don't lie about it.

 

My intent was not to trivialize anything. Just to point out that immediate feelings after any procedure, especially something like an abortion, may not be a life time issue for most people.

I wasn't "comparing" it to my section. And there was no "lying" involved. Just that my section was an operation that

1. I wasn't sure I really should have had. (and evetually realized it was for the best) and
2. felt VERY angry about it afterward.

I don't know the womyn in question, she may well (as most womyn who have had abortions) learn to come to terms with the procedure. Someone who is still regretting 2 abortions years later, maybe has some other isssues. If it was that bad, why the second one? MOST surgical procedures come with some problems stabilizing immediatly afterward. I think if you are still in mourning or regret YEARS later, there are definately some other issues being dealt with.

Neither should the regret or mourning over an abortion, that just isn't healthy. ANY surgical procedure needs to be thought about in great detail, if you have the time. People who are still angry about abortions years later, I wonder IF they thought enough about the procedure before they had it done. Most people who lose a child are not still experiencing depression more than a decade later.

Someone who is still mourning TWENTY YEARS after a procedure that was neccesary to save her life (your mother's ectopic preg abortion) should have gotten some grief therapy. That just isn't healthy.