I have been to germany several times; my mother is german and my father from spain (Don't bother, spain, in my opinion, sucks too). I really was not very impressed with germany at all. Went to some castles, went to some KZ's, etc. My remark about trying to accomplish through politic what they couldn't... referred to the EU, not Iraq. You bring up some good points; however, I would argue that the "holy" roman empire was powerful, influential, and was actually the first reich and from thence comes the Hohenstaufens, the Habsburgs and many of the issues responsible for Europe's past and present difficulties. What about WWI? It simply strikes me that for such an advanced nation to fall into such depravity as the holocaust, in the 20th century, very special underlying issues are required. It also strikes me funny; when I speak to relatives in Germany, apparently no one had ANY IDEA what was going on. No one was a nazi, everyone hated hitler, no one wondered where all the jews and other troublesome minorities were being taken. Strange indeed. I have travelled all over the world, and lived in several countries and not one of them can hold a candle to the US, in my opinion.
Culture wise the united state is a very poor country. the U.S constitution made things easy for people coming over from old europeans countrys and the fact this land is very rich in natural resources and agriculture not a jungle like brazil or a dangerus ground like the plains of africa. or useless mega square miles like australia. or the frozen siberia. China is another giant with poor land for agriculture . North america just happen to be a allround good medium land ideal for something in difrent spots . The germans did show the world a little country with smart people and great leader with fuck up ideas could kick ass and made giant strides. The early work for nuclear power. a true working rocket engine, the first combat jet engine fighter plane. see most of the modern invention started in old european countrys but they lack the giant natural resources. Im sure if Germany was the size of the U.S Hitler would had never existed . Prior to the Nazis the British were actually worse than Germans and had millions enslave under the British Empire around the world even after ww2 had ended.
I haven't read every single post in this thread, but from what I gathered I think that people have to get things a bit in persperctive in stop seeing things in black and white and also remember that history get's always written by those that win a war. To believe in the idea that one man went crazy, convinced a whole nation to go crazy as well and kills millions of people is very narrow minded and imo quite stupid. It just doesn't work like that. First of all, like others mentioned already there was a general hatred for jewish people all over Europe and that wasn't anything exceptional to Germany. Secondly there were infact historical reason for the germans to hate jewish people and look upon them as traitors, since they betrayed the german country during the first world war. Have you ever heared about the Balfour declaration? That was a dirty deal the german Zionists made with the english in WW1. The zionists promised the english to get the US into the war as their allies and in return the english promised the zionists to give them Palestine as a country after the war was won. Obviously England didn't have any rights to make such a promise, since it wasn't their country, but they did it anyway and with that put the seed for what is the Israel-Palestine conflict today. The US government was in big depth with the zionists and although they were until then pro Germany, they agreed to join the war as England's allies and overthrew the germans. At the same time coming over from the russian side, the Bolsheviks (jewish) were sending large amounts of money, weapons and agitators to Germany, who caused massive unrest, strikes and upheavals amongst dock and factory workers, destroying the military supply lines to the troops at the front. Now of course not all the jewish in Germany were zionists or bolsheviks, but it does explain why the germans felt they couldn't trust the jewish people, since powerful groups within them was working against german interests and were a serious thread to their country. Another reason why the germans were against the jewish people was an article published in '33 in the London Daily Express, with the headline "Judea declares war on Germany", in which the jewish were called to boykott all buisiness and trade with Germany. This was before there had been any actions taken against jewish by the german government. Five days later the german government called for the first actions against jewish citizens, but explicitly said: "Quiet, Discipline and No Violence! The Aryan Committees are responsible for ensuring that the entire struggle is carried out in complete calm and with absolute discipline. In future, too, do not harm a hair on a Jew's head!" Here is a link to a translation of the Official Document Another believe that is generally held is that Hitler all along wanted to kill all jews and that he wrote so in "Mein Kampf". I have been searching for such a quote, but there isn't. If you research a bit what Hitler has actually been writing you will find out, that he was a religious fanatic and that a lot of his believes about the jewish (or rather judaism) are correlating to things written in the bible (check NoBeliefs ). He wanted to get the jewish out of the country and get rid of judaism, because he saw it as a thread and against his religious believes, but he didn't want to kill all jewish. In fact there were offers made by the Gestapo to the Zionists in '41 and again in '42 to get all jewish deported to Spain and from there onward to the US and british colonies. The Zionists refused such an offer with the reason that only Palestine would be accepted as a destination for the deportees, although by that time they knew that the alternative to being deported would be the gas chambers. Check the following link for more information on that. Jews against Zionism I think there has always been and still are a lot of things going on and decisions being made between governments and other powerful people in this world that the public doesn't know about and that our view on history is very narrowed and blurred. None of us knows what was really going on and what was/is the real interests behind wars. There is much more to it than we think.
I definately agree with eleria on some points. The idea that one man was responsible for the holocaust is nonsense. His words and deeds found fertile soil in a country were jews periodically massacred in pogroms for centuries. Most of these earlier episodes were caused by religious ferver, but also by economics. Christian Europe during the Middle Ages had banned usary, the loaning of money to other Christians on interest. Since Jews were not bound by this law, they became the earliest bankers and money lenders in Europe. Unfortunately, I believe much of the information posted by eleria is very questionable if not completely incorrect. A point by point look: Yes, but it was the British, not German Zionists who did so. Moreover, there had been significant support for a Jewish homeland in the UK for decades. More importantly, America did not join the war against Germany because of a Jewish lobby. There were a number of factors including the Zimmermann Telegram, where Germany tried to ally with Mexico against the US in the case of a shift in American allegiance, the sinking of private US ships by German subs resulting in the deaths of some 200 + people, and the fact that by 1917 the US had loaned $470 million (2005 adjusted) to Germany, but had loaned $40 billion to the UK and France. The US government had to protect its financial interests by insuring an allied victory. The Bolsheviks were all Jewish, ehh??? True, many early communist leaders were Jewish, but certainly not all. A big one comes to mind right off: Joseph Stalin, born in Georgia, baptized Orthodox Christian. You need to pull your nose out of Mein Kampf. Second, the Bolsheviks ended the war with Germany, if my memory serves me, within a month after taking control of Russia in 1917. In fact, this was a caculated German-sponsored coup. They sent Lenin back to Russia with a shit load of cash to agitate there, in hopes a communist insurgency would distract Russia from her war goals, demoralize Russian troups, etc. The Germans were esctatic that the Bolsheviks were able to seize the reigns of government and end war on the eastern front. You are right, he doesn't talk about a "final solution" in Mein Kampf, but his hatred for the Jews is clear throughout the book. Mein Kampf was more concerned with lebensraum, or living space for the German people and economy. Hitler may have been religious, but not in the way most people would understand the word. He was Christian only in baptism and name. He lays it out clearly in Mein Kampf that religion was only valuable when it meshed with the will of the state. In Meing Kampf, Hitler writes that he preferred Lutheranism, and even Islam, to his own Catholic faith. He felt like Lutheranism was more "German" and the church was more easily controled. His political row with Bishop Galen in 1933 over euthinasia of the disabled and insane didn't help his relations with his own Catholic church. Also, Hitler, true to his hatred of Jews and pacifists, realized that Jesus and the apostles were themselves Jews and this was irreconcilable with his nationalist beliefs. Hitler tried with little success to overhaul the Germany Christian faith and rid it of its Jewish roots in a form the Nazis called "Positive Christianity". So there you have it! He may have used the Bible where it was expediant, and built upon Christian hatred for Jews that was based on the New Testament, but Hitler himself was not a Bible-thumpin' Christian by any means.
According to a speech of Benjamin Freedman, who was a zionist himself it was the german zionists who were going to the british war cabinet and proposed the deal that got fixed in the Balfour declaration. Also Lord Rothschild, who was head of the british zionists that time, was a german. No they weren't, but most of the ones that were in decision making positions at that time were. They had overthrown the russian zar and put a new government in place that was almost entirely jewish. The russian people were not happy about that at all and the germans feared something similar might happen to their country too. I am not claiming that I know all the facts, I am just trying to explain how it was possible to convince the german people that the jewish were a thread to their country and that it is silly to think that all germans were evil and jew haters for no reason whatsoever. I never read it. I just have been spending days to find a quote were Hitler said anything about killing all jews, or eradicating judaism, as people often claim. I never found such quote nor has any of those people who claim that Hitler said something like that ever been able to come up with one either. What I did come across was lot's of quotes were Hitler refers to what has been written in the Bible. If he wasn't believing in God, he at least faked it extremely well. Btw what did you think about the article in the Daily Express from '33, the document about the first actions against jewish in Germany and the fact that Hitler offered to get all jewish deported? You didn't refer to that in your point by point look
Hitler should had kill them all between jewish lawyers and insurance fraud jewish doctor car insurance is rediculus here . Calm down my little jewish friends just a jewish joke.
I read that he did this before he killed himself to protect her from the Soviets because he loved her so much and he was afraid they would torture and kill her, then abuse her corpse. I'm not saying you're wrong, though, because no one really knows, or ever will.
I think Hitler had some very good, progressive ideas (such as the Volkswagen/Autobahn/Women and Children's Funds/Marriage Loans, etc..)...but his hatred and racism killed any hope there was of those ideas being used for the betterment of mankind. However, he was an ENEMY of individual freedom--so that would've fucked him up with me right off the bat. I guess I'd have been killed or thrown into a camp.
The fuuny part is in those days all whites were mainly racist .the british were racist, americans were racist so really it was nothing majorly difrent. so hitler was not really way off the main stream.
I was thinking about that statement again and it really boggles my mind. If the US was about to join the war anyways and it wasn't because of the influence of the zionists, why would the Balfour declaration have been passed at all? Do you really think the english were that stupid?
Actually the publicly funded work creation schemes Hitler brought in were based on an inflationary economic model and so were completely unsustainable. If the war had not come along there would have been a massive economic crash in Germany caused by so much unrestrained public spending.
Well, I certainly didn't say I agree with his "socialistic" policies, but I merely said the ideas were good ones. I mean the Autobahn and the VW (for certain) were very progressive.
I didn't mean to say they weren't an influencial factor. Although Jews were widely hated in the United States at that time as well, they did have important influence then as they do today. I was saying that we joined the war for many reasons. That's all. Also as I said before, there was widespread support for creating a Jewish homeland in UK decades before Balfour. Victorian England was a devout place and sympathized with the 'choosen people of God'. Moreover, one may have argued then that the arangement made strategic sense in the inevitable senario where the Ottoman Empire would fall to set up a protectorate in this area and to have a western people loyal to Britain occupy it. Your point was well made. The Jews did have influence and some used it, some against Germany. Jews at the time had a disproportionate amount of income and occupied professions at a much higher rate than their Christian German/Austrian countrymen. They controled a large chunk of the media, both in Europe and in the US, again disproportionate to their size in numbers. However, the Jew were not and are not a homogeneous (no semantic pun intended ) group. Many Jews were poor. Many Jews concidered themselves to be fully German and fought in the German army faithfully during WW1. Hitler's ideas that Jews had a well-organized global conspiracy to dominate the world and were specifically out to undermine Germany was/is nonsense. As far as the so-call Final Solution, I don't think this came about until sometime in 1943 when they started offing Jews and other groups en masse. Hitler would have been too consumed with the war to write much about it, and they tried to be very careful about covering their tracks. The problem was that the allied advance was to quick to completely cover everything up. A quick story: I had a college professor who was raised in America as a non-practicing "Christian", celebrated xtn holidays, etc. It wasn't until she was in her 30s that she learned her father was a Jew who had fled from Germany after the war. He had been soooo traumatized that he wanted to completely wipe out his Jewish identity. She showed me a pre-war picture with her father's fairly extensive family of 40+ people. From this large family, only 2 had survived the Holocaust, her father and his cousin.
As you said yourself the jewish people are not a homogeneous group and I was refering to zionist, not jewish in general. Conspiracy is nowadays used to discribe some loonatic ideas, but actually it means "An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act". I think it is delousional to believe that there is/was no conspiracy going on between governments and other powerful groups/people in this world, zionists included.
not really than man responsible for gettin Hitler were he got was Ernst Rohm a open homosexual with out Ernst Hitler would had not gotten any where.http://www.govsux.com/night_of_the_long_knives.htm
[size=+2]The Night of the Long Knives[/size] [size=+0]The four million brown shirted Nazi storm troopers, the SA (Sturmabteilung), included many members who actually believed in the 'socialism' of National Socialism and also wanted to become a true revolutionary army in place of the regular German Army. [/size] But to the regular Army High Command and its conservative supporters, this potential storm trooper army represented a threat to centuries old German military traditions and the privileges of rank. Adolf Hitler had been promising the generals for years he would restore their former military glory and break the "shackles" of the Treaty of Versailles which limited the Army to 100,000 men and prevented modernization. For Adolf Hitler, the behavior of the SA was a problem that now threatened his own political survival and the entire future of the Nazi movement. The anti-capitalist, anti-tradition sentiments often expressed by SA leaders and echoed by the restless masses of storm troopers also caused great concern to big industry leaders who had helped put Hitler in power. Hitler had promised them he would put down the trade union movement and Marxists, which he had done. However, now his own storm troopers with their talk of a 'second revolution' were sounding more and more like Marxists themselves. (The first revolution having been the Nazi seizure of power in early 1933.) The SA was headed by Ernst Röhm, a battle scarred, aggressive, highly ambitious street brawler who had been with Hitler from the very beginning. Röhm and the SA had been very instrumental in Hitler's rise to power by violently seizing control of the streets and squashing Hitler's political opponents. However, by early 1934, a year after Hitler came to power, the SA's usefulness as a violent, threatening, revolutionary force had effectively come to an end. Hitler now needed the support of the regular Army generals and the big industry leaders to rebuild Germany after the Great Depression, re-arm the military and ultimately accomplish his long range goal of seizing more living space for the German people. The average German also feared and disliked the SA brownshirts with their arrogant, gangster-like behavior, such as extorting money from local shop owners, driving around in fancy news cars showing off, often getting drunk, beating up and even murdering innocent civilians. At the end of February, 1934, Hitler held a meeting attended by SA and regular Army leaders including Röhm and German Defense Minister General Werner von Blomberg. At this meeting Hitler informed Röhm the SA would not be a military force in Germany but would be limited to certain political functions. In Hitler's presence, Röhm gave in and even signed an agreement with Blomberg. However, Röhm soon let it be know he had no intention of keeping to the agreement. In April he even boldly held a press conference and proclaimed, "The SA is the National Socialist Revolution!!" Within the SA at this time was a highly disciplined organization known as the SS (Shutzstaffel) which had been formed in 1925 as Hitler's personal body guard. SS chief Heinrich Himmler along with his second-in-command, Reinhard Heydrich, and Hermann Göring, began plotting against Röhm to prod Hitler into action against his old comrade, hoping to gain from Röhm's downfall. On June 4, Hitler and Röhm had a five hour private meeting lasting until midnight. A few days later Röhm announced he was taking a 'personal illness' vacation and the whole SA would go on leave for the month of July. He also convened a conference of top SA leaders for June 30 at a resort town near Munich which Hitler promised to attend to sort things out. On June 17, Vice Chancellor Franz von Papen, who had helped Hitler become Chancellor, stunned everyone by making a speech criticizing the rowdy, anti-intellectual behavior of the SA and denouncing Nazi excesses such as strict press censorship. Papen also focused on the possibility of a 'second revolution' by Röhm and the SA and urged Hitler to put a stop to it. "Have we experienced an anti-Marxist revolution in order to put through a Marxist program?" Papen asked. His speech drastically increased the tension between German Army leaders and SA leaders and further jeopardized Hitler's position. But for the moment Hitler hesitated to move against his old comrade Röhm. A few days later, June 21, Hitler went to see German President Paul von Hindenburg at his country estate. Hindenburg was in failing health and now confined to a wheelchair. Hitler met with the Old Gentleman and Defense Minister Blomberg and was stiffly informed the SA problem must be solved or the president would simply declare martial law and let the German Army run the country, effectively ending the Nazi regime. Meanwhile, Himmler and Heydrich spread false rumors that Röhm and the SA were planning a violent takeover of power (putsch). On June 25, the German Army was placed on alert, leaves canceled and the troops confined to the barracks. An agreement had been secretly worked out between Himmler and Army generals ensuring cooperation between the SS and the Army during the coming action against the SA. The Army would provide weapons and any necessary support, but would remain in the barracks and let the SS handle things. On Thursday, June 28, Hitler, Göring, and Goebbels attended the wedding of Gauleiter Josef Terboven in Essen. Hitler was informed by phone that he faced the possibility of a putsch by Röhm's forces and also faced the possibility of a revolt by influential conservative non-Nazis who wanted Hindenburg to declare martial law and throw out Hitler and his government. Hitler then sent Göring back to Berlin to get ready to put down the SA and conservative government leaders there. The SS was put on full alert. Friday, June 29, Hitler made a scheduled inspection tour of a labor service camp and then went to a hotel near Bonn for the night. He was informed by Himmler that evening by phone that SA troops in Munich knew about the coming action and had taken to the streets. Hitler decided to fly to Munich to put down the SA rebellion and confront Röhm and top SA leaders who were gathered at the resort town of Bad Wiessee near Munich. Arriving in Munich near dawn, Saturday, June 30, Hitler first ordered the arrest of the SA men who were inside Munich Nazi headquarters, then proceeded to the Ministry of the Interior building where he confronted the top SA man in Munich after his arrest, even tearing off his insignia in a fit of hysteria. Next it was on to Röhm. A column of troops and cars containing Hitler, Rudolf Hess, and others, sped off toward Röhm and his men. At this point, the story is often told (partly conceived by the Nazis) of Hitler arriving at the resort hotel about 6:30 a.m. and rushing inside with a pistol to arrest Röhm and other SA leaders. However it is more likely the hotel was first secured by the SS before Hitler went near it. Hitler then confronted Röhm and the others and sent them to Stadelheim prison outside Munich to be later shot by the SS. An exception was made in the case of Edmund Heines, an SA leader who had been found in bed with a young man. When told of this, Hitler ordered his immediate execution at the hotel. A number of the SA leaders, including Röhm, were homosexuals. Prior to the purge, Hitler for the most part ignored their behavior because of their usefulness to him during his rise to power. However, their usefulness and Hitler's tolerance had now come to an end. Later, their homosexual conduct would be partly used as an excuse for the murders. Saturday morning about 10 a.m. a phone call was placed from Hitler in Munich to Göring in Berlin with the prearranged code word 'Kolibri' (hummingbird) that unleashed a wave of murderous violence in Berlin and over 20 other cities. SS execution squads along with Göring's private police force roared through the streets hunting down SA leaders and anyone on the prepared list of political enemies (known as the Reich List of Unwanted Persons). Included on the list: Gustav von Kahr, who had opposed Hitler during the Beer Hall Putsch of 1923 - found hacked to death in a swamp near Dachau; Father Bernhard Stempfle, who had taken some of the dictation for Hitler's book Mein Kampf and knew too much about Hitler - shot and killed; Kurt von Schleicher, former Chancellor of Germany and master of political intrigue, who had helped topple democracy in Germany and put Hitler in power - shot and killed along with his wife; Gregor Strasser, one of the original members of the Nazi Party and formerly next in importance to Hitler; Berlin SA leader Karl Ernst, who was involved in torching the Reichstag building in February, 1933; Vice-Chancellor Papen's press secretary; Catholic leader Dr. Erich Klausener. Saturday evening, Hitler flew back to Berlin and was met at the airport by Himmler and Göring in a scene later described by Hans Gisevius, a Gestapo official, present. "On his way to the fleet of cars, which stood several hundred yards away, Hitler stopped to converse with Göring and Himmler. Apparently he could not wait a few minutes until he reached the Chancellery?From one of his pockets Himmler took out a long, tattered list. Hitler read it through, while Göring and Himmler whispered incessantly into his ear. We could see Hitler's finger moving slowly down the sheet of paper. Now and then it paused for a moment at one of the names. At such times the two conspirators whispered even more excitedly. Suddenly Hitler tossed his head. There was so much violent emotion, so much anger in the gesture, that everybody noticed it?Finally they moved on, Hitler in the lead, followed by Göring and Himmler. Hitler was still walking with the same sluggish tread. By contrast, the two blood drenched scoundrels at his side seemed all the more lively?" As for Ernst Röhm - on Hitler's order he had been given a pistol containing a single bullet to commit suicide, but refused to do it, saying "If I am to be killed let Adolf do it himself." Two SS officers, one of whom was Theodore Eicke, commander of the Totenkopf (Death's Head) guards at Dachau, entered Röhm's cell after waiting fifteen minutes and shot him point blank. Reportedly, Röhm's last words were "Mein Führer, mein Führer!" On Sunday evening, July 1, while some of the shooting was still going on, Hitler gave a tea party in the garden of the Chancellery for cabinet members and their families to give the appearance things were getting back to normal. By 4 a.m., Monday, July 2, the bloody purge had ended. The exact number of murders is unknown since all Gestapo documents relating to the purge were destroyed. Estimates vary widely from 200 or 250, to as high as 1,000 or more. Less than half of those murdered were actually SA officers. In one case, a man named Willi Schmidt was at home playing the cello. Four SS men rang the doorbell, entered and took him away, leaving his wife and three young children behind. They had mistaken Dr. Willi Schmidt, music critic for a Munich newspaper, for another Willi Schmidt on the list. Dr. Schmidt was assassinated and his body later returned to his family in a sealed coffin with orders from the Gestapo that it should not be opened. On July 13, Hitler gave a long speech to the Nazi controlled Reichstag (Parliament) in which he announced seventy four had been shot and justified the murders. "If anyone reproaches me and asks why I did not resort to the regular courts of justice, then all I can say is this: In this hour I was responsible for the fate of the German people, and thereby I became the supreme judge of the German people." "It was no secret that this time the revolution would have to be bloody; when we spoke of it we called it 'The Night of the Long Knives.' Everyone must know for all future time that if he raises his hand to strike the State, then certain death is his lot." By proclaiming himself the supreme judge of the German people, Hitler in effect placed himself above the law, making his word the law, and thus instilled a permanent sense of fear in the German people. The German Army generals, by condoning the unprecedented events of the Night of the Long Knives, effectively cast their lot with Hitler and began the long journey with him that would eventually lead them to the brink of world conquest and later to the hanging docks at Nuremberg after the war. A few weeks after the purge, Hitler rewarded the SS for its role by raising the SS to independent status as an organization no longer part of the SA. Leader of the SS, Reichsführer Heinrich Himmler now answered to Hitler and no one else. Reinhard Heydrich was promoted to SS Gruppenführer (Lieutenant-General). From this time on, the SA brownshirts would be diminished and all but disappear eventually as its members were inducted into the regular Army after Hitler re-introduced military conscription in 1935. The SS organization under Himmler and Heydrich would greatly expand and become Hitler's instrument of mass murder and terror throughout the remaining history of the Third Reich, another eleven years.
I know what a conspiracy is. . I still don't believe that there was a global conspiracy to dominate the world that constituted a threat that justified the extermination of an entire race.
