the Catholics vs the Protestants in Ireland - opinions?

This has been going on for ever, and really over the pettiest of differences that have escallated to all this damage, unfortunately. What do you think, as free practicers of the religion you choose w/o discrimination, here in N. America?

 

The conflict in Northern Ireland has actually little to do with religion. It is more to do with politics, and increasingly is just a manifestation of gang warfare.

 

Essentially yes. At one point religion was fairly important, but that was hundreds of years ago. Nowadays, religion in that particular conflict is simply one more way that people have of distinguishing between "us" and "them" and of vilifying "them" while glorifying "us".

 

First, the Pagans fleeing Rome escape to Ireland. Then they are raided time and time again by vikings until they are cut with Norse blood. Then the Holy Roman empire comes in and forcibly converts those who they can and kill those they cannot. Then Cromwell sends the protestant farmers into Ireland from Britain. And people ask why they (we) are so tough. Why they fight on for their freedom and independence. How about they've had their freedom and heritage stolen from them time and time again.

Any more questions?

 

I just feel horrible whenever I here about this. Something very cheesy was said to me by one of my friend's mother who was from belfast. She said after Sep 11, "I moved to America to get away from terrorism" I cant imagine living scared. I really beleive Everybody has the right to be free from fear. Who said that? Roosevelt? I cant remember.

Anyway, I wish we could all jsut sit in a circle and sing "We can work it out" lol

 

It actually ha a lot to do with religion. If you look at the population, it's still very devided, and the Catholic part of Ireland and the Protestand part of Ireland is very well defined.

There are a lot of groups - the gang warfare - that are specifically Cath. or Prot. and are combating each other. Over the years, other things have developed from it like political ideas etc but there is still a lot of prejudice btwn the two religions.

 

No. It may have started out on the basis of religion, esp. when William of Orange invaded along with his scottish presbeterians )from whom the protestants in the north are descended) but it has long since ceased to be a religious conflict.
In fact, mostly the para-militaries on both sides are little more than criminal thugs - especially since the Good Friday agreement, and moves towards peace.

 

Damnit, this is annoying; especially from someone who I resepct. Zoomie, you seem to know history quite well, so why this now. Much of it makes no sense.

1. There is absolutely no evidence of any significant pagan flight from Rome ever occuring at all. If it did occur they wouldn't have gone to Ireland. Roman persecution of pagan religions did not begin until the late fourth century. While the Romans still occupied Britain until the early fifth century real Roman authority as well as Roman law had at this point ceased to be in Britain, Rome ruled Britain in name only. This situation had existed since the middle of the fourth century.
If Pagans had fled Rome (which there is no evidence for) they would have fled from areas of real Roman control since that is where the persecution took place and would have fled to Germanic areas just over the border. They would not have gone all the way to Ireland for several reasons, the cheif reason being that they would have had no knowledge of Ireland's existence much less it's location. Neither could they have made it all the way to Ireland. The wealthy and middle-class pagans were for the most part exempted from persecution. It was by-and-large the under classes who were persecuted and they would not have had the resources to make it all the way to ireland.

2. The Holy Roman Empire never came anywhere near Ireland. The closest they came was the Low countries. The idea that the HRE invaded Ireland is pure fiction. Ireland was the first area in Europe outside of the old Roman empire to convert to Christianity. In fact, Ireland converted to Christianity in the middle part of the fifth century. Irleand was Christian long before the Holy Roman Empire came into existence, so the idea that the HRE converted Ireland can't possibly work anyway.

3. Cromwell, yeah you're right about Cromwell. But you left out what a total bastard he was. He is called the "baby killer" for a very good reason, viz., that he had Catholic babies killed by the thousand. You left out everybody else from Longshanks to the Black and Tans. Not that they all have to be mentioned, but you left out King Billy who was easily as bad as Cromwell and far more relevant to the current conflict. The Black and Tans as well are incredibly important as it was their horrible brutality and evil that united the Irish under one banner.

 

I'd just like to add this: the fact that a person calls themslf a Christian doesn't mean they are one. A Christian is one who follows the teaching of Christ.

It is clear enough that those who plant bombs to main and kill innocent people, carry out 'punishment beatings' and the like are not following that teaching, whatever they may say or claim.

 

The current troubles definitely have a lot to do with William of Orange.
However, had the brutality of the black and tans united all the Irish under one banner, there wouldn't be the current troubles. It united all of Catholic Ireland, but not the 'johhny come lately' Protestant 'loyalists' in the Northern part of the country.
It was the oppression by them of the Catholic minority in Northern Ireland that sparked the current round of violence.

 

That is essentially what I am referring to. No, the Black and Tans did not literally unite "ALL" of Ireland. However, prior to them there were numerous reform movements all with different ideas about the degree of independance that Ireland needed. These groups tried to work together as much as they could, but were often at odds with one another as well. Once the Black and Tans came along all of that changed. The vast majority of those groups immediately went for total independance and united under the IRA banner. Granted the protestants in the north did not, but then they were essentially allies of the Black and Tans anyhow.

 

Yes - the loyalist protestants in the six counties of Ulster wanted British rule to continue, and certainly they would have supported the black and tans, just as they supported the presence of the British Army from the late 60's onwards.
Even now, there is intense political division, but the hope is that some settlement may be reached by political means. Just recently, Gerry Adams, head of Sin Fein, the IRA's political wing, has called for them to finally disband. It remains to be seen how it will all work out.
Meanwhile, as I said in my previous post, both IRA Catholic republican and various protestant loyalist para-military organizations have become like gangsters. The troubles have led to the creation of small private armies of armed and ruthless thugs, and this is now proving to be a challenge. There is some question as to whether these people still heed those who were previously their leaders, but have now turned to politics and the 'peace process'. These people intimidate entire communities, and administer their own vicious brand of rough justice to anyone they don't like.
The violence now(which is on a much smaller scale than a few years ago) has little to do with politics even, let alone religion.

 

I read somewhere that there is a birth-rate diferential between the Prods and the Catholics of Northern Ierland and that the greated fecundity of Catholics is worring the Protestants.

its odd that they are physically indistinguishable from each other.

 

Well, I have relatives who were very nearly killed by IRA bombing attempts, so there's no love lost for me and that mob.

Sixty something year old ladies in Manchester didn't oppress anyone.

Terrorism is terrorism and should be destroyed like the cancer it is.

 

Professor, my apologies. We've had similar discussions before, you and Dan and I. The hour was late and my head was heavy, I barely remember posting that. I mistakenly said "Pagans" when I should have said Celts. Where the HRE came from I do not know. Perhaps I should not post after that many hours at work.

Christianization of Ireland is attributed to Patrick of Bannaven Taberniae, later St. Patrick, known for driving the snakes (Pagans) from Ireland. The HRE never really came into play because Catholicism as we know it did not really exist in Ireland until the 1600s.

The differences between the Protestants and Catholics in Ireland were both religious and political in nature. Religious differences were obvious. Political because in the 18th century the Protestants were the ruling class, the church leaders and government leaders, the landlords, etc. The Catholics, though they comprised 80% of the population, owned only 5% of the land in the latter half of the 18th century. And laws were passed that made it illegal to transfer land by marriage or bequeathment among Catholics, they were not allowed to hold any profession other than medical, or hold public office so they were basically all peasants, and they were not allowed to own anything which had a value exceeding 5 pounds. So the vast majority of the population was extremely poor and outcast in their own homeland. And it was done legally until the early 20th century.

And people wonder why there is so much turmoil there.

 

Maybe I'm dumber than I thought, but wasn't Catholicism the main religion there since St Patric converted them? Something about Irish monks keeping Western Civilization alive during the dark ages comes to mind. They were Catholic monks, right?

 

Researching...

 

St Patrick I believe is Catholic - in fact I'm about 95% sure that Catholicism is the only branch of Christianity that believes in saints - which is fairly ironic considering that it's one of the stricter versions of christianity and they're out there worshiping other dieties, so to speak.

Everyone, in a way, is fairly right about Irish history and the list of reasons why there's the separation of Cath. and Prot. Ireland, esp. in this thread. Over the centuries, the list of reasons of why these two groups despise each other so much has grown longer and longer, but the origins of the despute is religion. My inlaws are Irish, immigrants from there, and part of the reason why they left was because they couldn't handle such descrimination. Families themselves are being torn apart simply because of faith.

 

You are correct - St. Patrick was Catholic (rhymes too!) - as were the monks to whom you refer.
But there was also Celtic Christianity which flourished in Ireland and areas of England in the dark ages. A descision to adopt the Catholic faith was taken at the synod of Whitby (664 A.D.) which led to the virtual disappearance of this church. All this is recorded by the Venerable Bede in his 'History of the English Chuch and People'.

 

But the origin isn't really religion. The origin is foregin invasion and occupation. The English invanded Ireland hundreds of years before the English reformation. At that time both nations were Catholic and religion had nothing to do with it. Religion was added to the conflict around the time of the time of Queen Elizabeth I, but did not become an important element until the regin of King William III of Engalnd (Wiliam II of Orange hence the term "Orange men" for protestant loyalists).