Right, I know that this will be contraversial but thats kind of the point... Two things i want you to think about first it:- Why are some of you planning on protesting this? How much money are you spending on getting to Edinburgh?? Living in Edinburgh and also knowing a few people who live in the very close vicinity of Gleneagles, I have a rather mixed view about these so called 'protests' which are going to be taking place in only a months time. Now im not saying that its right that these people have not abandoned dept in developing countries, and also have the power to change things. but really, if they never had the power then someone else would-there is waaay more to say on this point but at this time im not going to. Im all for Geldof's ideas and idealogy and he has done a lot of amazing work, BUT is asking a million people to come to Edinburgh really going to make a difference? there have already been things agreed on with America and its a big breakthrough for the world. A million people turning up in Edinburgh is going to cause madness. Smaller shops are closing and boarding up their shops for fear of them getting trashed. Now i know you may say that this won't happen, but it will, ad if not theres a huge chance it will. This seems like an excuse for everyone to get together and have a good time rather than try and change anything. If everyone who plans on coming to Edinburgh pooled the money they are spending on travel and the time off work, then it would make half a billion pounds, this could be spent in what ever way the PEOPLE saw fit. what else do people do other than protest? its not going to make a difference, honestly. The G8 itself is almost a formatlity as most things are decided before it actually takes place-or thats what it seems to me. The people in Edinburgh are not wanting all these people here, and are scared-now whther this is down to scaremongering of police or not remains to be seen, but i would encourage anyone planning on coming to 'protest' to questions your motives, and if you are just doing it for a bit of 'fun' then go elsewhere. being in edinburgh is NOT going to be fun, its going to be heavy and many people and their livlihoods are going to be hurt......... Also if anyone plans on trying to get to Gleneagles itself, i've seen the first fences already erected, and theres no way you can get anywhere near it....and the people in Auchtermuchty really don't need the trauma of dealing with pent up so-called 'protesters'.... If you do come up then remember why you are doing this and go in peace. *hugs* Uma x
I think it does make a difference, and it is very important to protest. People could have said the same things when 2 million people marched against the war in London (my I cried a river that so many local businesses couldn't open on February 15th 2003 - there really are much bigger issues at stake than a few bakeries!). No, we didn't stop the war, but would it really have been better to let the war go ahead without even the idea being raised that people are against it? The actions of the anti-war movement served to cast a spotlight on politicians making immoral decisions, and our arguments have been proved right. I honestly don't believe that Blair would now follow Bush into a potential war with Iran over alleged weapons of mass destruction. If we had sat back and done nothing over the Iraq war, I don't think I would be as confident about that. What we're dealing with is negative resistance, rather than positive. We cannot hope to use such protests against the G8 and the war to actively push our own policies on the politicians, but we can use them to constrain the power of the politicians themselves. It may not seem like protesting does much because it is not in the positive sphere of power, and so often no actual benefits may be seen, but I'd hate to think what the world would be like today if we had never spoken out, never protested and never stood in the way of politicians doing whatever they want to do. Protesting is part of the democratic process, and flawed as it may be, it is better to do than to die....
This is all true Sal, and fair enough, but you still never really addressed the issue. You know as well as I do that there will be troublemakers coming for the 'protest', and this will make ordinary people suffer, people who do not deserve it. surely its best not to cause any more suffering? Also imagine the effect if there was a giant pool of all the money which will be used to ferry 'protesters' to the city, and if that money was taken into our own hands and we helped those who needed it the most? what then? We all know that no matter how many people are on the streets, its not going to make a iota of difference to what goes on inside Gleneagles, so why not do something positive that WILL actually change something?? Uma x
a true story that happened to my best friend in nigeria . There was this wealthy african and his house was attacked by robbers this happens quite a lot in nigeria , and because the dog protected the mans home and tried to fight off the robbers the dog was attacked by machetes on the head had one leg broken and left in a very pityful state . anyway as soon as the robbers had been chased away the man saw the dog was in a bad state and what he did was drive the dog out from his compound and leave it to starve because the dog was no longer any use as a gaurd dog . he didnt kill the dog to put it out of its misery, he didnt try to help heal the dog who had just saved is life Tony my friend went see this man and saw the dog outside this mans gates and went and bought a large amount fish to give to the dog, and when the man saw this he said to tony give me the fish dont waste it on the dog are you mad giving fish to that useless dog . if you go to the third world you see lots of people who are doing very well , there is enough resources in africa to feed that continent but the wealthy and people generally dont give a damn about each other . go to india you see the starving and you see people living a lavish lifestyle this is not the g8 fault, its the fault of the greedy selfish people who live in these countrys . you wont see a protest against selfish greedy africans or indians but you will see people blaming the west I think this is because of racism . if we get rid of the present debt what is to stop the ropey people in charge of these countrys running up more debt, and do you think we could blame all our problems on the italians and romen imperialism and colonialism .
As far as I could tell in the London demonstrations against the war, there was little/no real violent trouble. I agree that peaceful protest, where possible, is the best way to go. Often, however, violence is started by the police, and also the issues are misrepresented by the media. I think there is actually a lot fewer incidents of violence than it may at first seem. Also the demo in Edinburgh is not the anti-G8 demo. The one in Edinburgh on the 2nd is the Make Povery History demo, which has much milder objectives and is a lot more sanitised for a mainstream audience, I think everyone recognises that violence would be detrimental to this and it will be strongly discouraged, as with the anti war demos. The one at Gleneagles on the 6th is the one more likely to contain violent elements. But I would not write off violent protesters as just going along for fun, I think their actions, whether we agree with them or not, are for a cause they believe in, and I can only sympathise with that. As for your point on money, I don't think half a billion pounds is going to make a blind bit of difference. It's a drop in the ocean. Aid and charity is important to help relieve suffering, but it is only on a long term basis that we're ever going to make any difference. We can start to do that by writing off debt, massively increasing government (rather than simply individual) aid and making way for fair trade relations. And yes, I actually do think a million people in the streets will make a difference. I can prove that because we're talking about it now. It's entered the popular consciousness, everyone knows about it, everyone's listening to these ideas being passed around. It has already made a difference, and the potential weight of such a campaign is much greater than if no one knew about it, or worse still, no one cared....
Actually that's not true, these kind of protests go on in the third world all the time, they just don't receive the same kind of media attention. Just look at Bolivia now, and Venezuela - in fact these kind of things are happening all over South America. There is also a growing resistance movement in India against the caste system, and in defence of Dalits, which my brother has got involved in - but you don't hear much about that in the mainstream media. I agree that there are deep internal problems within many third world countries, and not all poverty can be attributed to the west, internal exploitation still takes place. However, if these kind of inequalities are to be addressed, I think we need to help the poorest in these countries to get on a level playing field, and that is something we in the west can do, even if not all of it is our fault....
well I think to much attention is being placed on the g8 and not on the people who could really sort out these country. and how could we stop these ropey people running up debt again
Johnny... might I bring to your attention a quote from an interview with Bob Geldof in Friday's Times Education Supplement... So Geldof is not putting his head in the sand as some right-wing propaganda would have you believe... he has been working on this for 20 fucking years now... I believe he knows what he is talking about. Fly...
Not forgetting the important issue of governance, let's examine some reasons why the G8 (and, by exttension, us) needs to put it's own house in order too... From the same publication... Fancy some more... cos I love statistics... Fun, eh?... Fly...
you still havnt answered my question if we clear all debts whats to stop the people in charge of these countrys running up more debt . if geldorf sees that the problems governance why isnt he attacking the governments that are corrupt and badly run instead of the g8, I mean he could have protests against the governments of these badly run corrupt countrys . name and shame them he or this commission seem to have a very strange neo-colonialist attitude when it implys that its going to deal or can deal with the problem of governance,isnt that problem the problem of the people in these countrys, and surely the people at fault if these countrys are corrupt and badly run are the people running them . hmmm $350bn a year that G8 countries and Australia spend on subsidising their farmers is seven times what they donate to poor countries in aid. well these farmers pay taxes so the $350bn is partly their money and they are citizens of these countrys . why should you have to give more or equal amounts of money to people in other countrys when you already know that much of it will end up in the hands of the corrupt wealthy people running these badly run countrys . The money is enough to guarantee clean water for everyone in the world ($170bn), a primary education for every child not in school ($6bn), basic health and nutrition for all ($13bn) and pay off the public debt of the most indebted countries in the world ($90bn). does this take into account the corruption in these badly run corrupt countrys you want to help . and as anyone asked whether when you look at somewhere with the natural resources of africa why a whole continent cant of itself pay for all of this by itself . how much money is spent in africa by africans on arms?
I think south africas spending on arms is $8.5 billion that figure isnt very current its from a couple of years ago , but that alone by your figures could pay nearly for basic health and nutrition for all $13billion .
Well i am partly going up there to see if my pre-concieved thoughts about the notion of 'protesting' is anything more than..well i won't say fun, counter productive and/or self absorbed maybe. I would ask the issues people are going up for not 'why protesting'..thats a easily answered question. The reasons people go to specific protests intrests me.. is it purely for the matter at hand or just 'on the circuit of protests'. I have no desire to cause any trouble . Going on what sal says i am going around the 6th now- Sal what is wrong with the 'sanitised version' why does any element or 'fear' of something 'kicking off' any more helpful to any cause you may be going up for..getting angry protestors in the news never informed me about why such people were protesting any better than a 'sanitised' bunch of protestors ?). I am going up to Scotland for the reason i just tried to explain .. but the main reason is of course 'MPH', i hope to speak with many people more informed about these issues than me (not that it fundementaly matters how informed you are) and are not 'anti' this or that... If i think about it is slightly pointless myself going up there but it will be a experiance i don't think i will forget. You have a good point about why each persons money can not be better spent.. collectively. If your estimates are correct a village could benefit greatly. I think sal said 'it won't make a blind bit of diffrence' no in the bigger picture it won't .. a strongly worded letter to 'whom ever it may concern' and a donation will benefit somebody right now .. but it is our luxury not to think of the here and now and think about our own personal 'right to protest' . I do seem pious but it is a realy difficult paradox for me th figure out. plus the amount of polution generated for such endeavours and the traffic jams and (gee i think i may stay at home )... it boggles the mind realy.
Military expenditure in sub-Saharan Africa 7.1 billion dollars so just add the money spent on arms by south africa and sub-saharan africa, and you have by your figures enough to give everybody basic health and nutrition and 2.2 billion left over . why doesnt geldorf and the whole give more aid the west is at fault for everything circus name and shame these countrys how much money do countrys like india and pakistan spend on arms surely their nuclear programs are pretty expensive for countrys with lots of people living in poverty . I think the reason the real guilty men are not being called out is racism, I cant think of any other reason
Nothing's wrong with the sanitised form of protest, I fully support Make Poverty History. My point was that it is a legal demonstration, well supervised by the police, within the framework of a democratic state. Very much like the anti war demos. Also the message is not very controversial, and it's designed to appeal to as wide an audience as possible. That's fine, I support that. I'm not saying that violence on a protest is a good thing, all I'm saying is there is much less chance of violence on the MPH demo than the no holds barred anti-G8 demo on the 6th, which will represent many elements and ideas from radical anti capitalist traditions. Secondly, I didn't say it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference. I said it would hardly be a drop in the ocean. That's not a reason to not support charity, I regularly give to charity and have worked for them. Charity is good, and I'd much rather a world where it existed than it didn't. My point was that, in my opinion, there's not really much merit to to the argument that says don't bother protesting, just save money on travel and give it to charity. Protesting is about long term change. Charity doesn't solve long term problems, it just helps to ease the symptoms. You can't take asprin to cure a brain tumour, even if it eases the headaches. I think it's vitally important to see a big, and yes peaceful, protest at the G8 this year, to entrench these ideas in mainstream politics and let the politicians know that unless they do something, these arguments aren't going to go away. I care much more about that than some conservative (with a small c) ideal of peaceful local communities and small businesses not being interrupted for a day....
estimates are that pakistans bomb was pretty cheap $5 billion, but this is being payed for by a country thats $39 billion in debt , why should we be asked to cancel this countrys debt ? indias nuclear bomb cost $10-25 billion and they have had to drop a plan to provide basic education to all school-age children this would have cost a simular amount as their bomb program. india has at least 400 million people below the poverty line who earn less than the equivalent of $1 a day they have 100 million people unemployed or underemployed. both countrys have a massive problem with over population which neither country is doing anything about why doesnt geldorf name and shame these countrys
Oh Johnny... nice to see a reasonable and open examination of the faults on both sides developing from your posts... Yes... you are so right... it is all the fault of the African nations... not us... no sir... we have never done anything morally questionable... the developed world has been a shining example of ethical beviour... just who are these wankers that suggest we have done anything to make a bad situation worse by taking advantage of poorly organised and underdeveloped countries... Or... this could be bollocks!!! I have already conceeded that there is an issue of governance to be addressed... how you address it is important... let's look at the issue of Zambia... Zambia is part of the Heavily Indebted Poor Countires Initiative... creditors reward countires who take prudent action against reducing poverty... this includes addressing poor governace and corruption... in Zambia, the current President Levy Mwanawasa has removed the presidential immunity from his predecessor (Frederick Chiluba) and has had him arrested for embezzlement... does this meet with your approval?... However... this does not address other issues... one of the primary resources is the growing of sugar cane... in Kayla, farmers have been given smallholdings to grow sugar cane... the 161 farmers have about 6 hectares... they are able to earn about £2,500 a year... so there you go... they have the recources to escape from poverty... so why is it not happening elsewhere?... it comes back to that issue of protectionist sanctions... the EU has set up quotas that limit the ammount that Zambia can sell to lucrative European markets... is this free trade?... is it bollocks... the WTO has openly criticised the US for illegally using $3.2 billion on annual cotton subsadies that break international trade laws... yes, yet another example of the US breaking international law... name and shame?... This is an extremely complicated situation and it requires all nations to accept responsibility... and it will take all nations to work towards resolution... Fly...
dear fly Ive just pointed out that we have very poor countrys in debt spending their money on things like nuclear weapons programmes instead of feeding their poor . That they of themselves have the money to pay for their starving but choose to buy arms instead . but still you seem to want to blame the west if we have subsudies to support our farmers that doesnt stop these countrys from selling their goods elsewhere . and why should we create mass unemployment at our expense so that we can send jobs to foreign countrys who are often hostile to us and are spending their money on things like atom bombs
also isnt it better from a ecological point of view for food to be produced in the country its being eaten in . you seem to want apart from creating mass unemployment in the west to create more pollution transporting food out of places like africa
