http://www.channel4.com/culture/microsites/P/pagans/html/programmes/index.html I have been watching this programe with great intrest .. out of all the 'religeons' out their ... i see more rational thoughts and reasonable understanding of the way things are.. What i don't understand is why paganism is surounded by such mysticism..when its not that way i think (or not any more). Or it should not be that way.... we don't all need to be amazed at the great powers that certain few are deemed capable of... I don't know an awful lot ... but all i have seen before this series is ..the chanting around big stones and howling at the moon sort of thing .. Very wrong i am sure , well i do hope so. If any one else saw the programe maybe you could give me some more information that takes paganism awat from its stereotypical image . Ermmm paganism in a shirt and tie...rather than Their is always a few 'normal' people that don't like all the song and dance of paganism...surely I hope its deep and meaningful and not just superficial like other religeons...why do so many people insist on bringing it down so.. Imagine what huge benefits that would be acheived if we stopped creating pomp and ceromony about the whole thing...more people might accept that their is a wealth of understanding and shared knowledge that could be erm shared.. I suspect pagans wish to be as 'individual' and 'diffrent' as the next person ... and like the fact that they are deemed 'diffrent' and mysterious . Having a godless world based on science would be dull .
Keep in mind Paganism is an umbrella term for a group of religions. No one has yet came up with a good definition for Paganism yet save to say Pagan religions are non-Christian (though there seems some with Christian elements) and self-identified as Pagan. I am Hellenic Pagan. Most of us don't go into much pomp; I light candles for the Olympians and that is bout the extent of my ceremonies. My ritual attire is often my blue jean shorts. In the context of larger groups I don't mind the fantasy feel of flowing robes and such, but alone or in smaller worship circles, it just seems pointless. Still they might help some folk suspend disbelief so they might not be all bad. Mysticism originally meant directly communing with the deities; in that sense I think it's a good thing that many Pagans come across as mystics. In the sense of keeping secrets from outsiders, I agree it does more harm than good and ulterior motives are always possible and under the cover of secrecy imposible to rule out. Forgot, here's a webpage you might enjoy: http://sponde.com/HandsOnHellenismos.html
I am not surprised realy ... you can call shamen pagans i suppose .. The christian pagan mmm in the documentary i linked too they had a shamen 'connecting with the spirit world' with mushrooms that were red and white , they said this could be a possible reason why santa clause is represented in many cultures in red and white .. because the particulay ceremony the shamen was performing was in december .. The ceremony was about the coming years harvest and were and when the crops should harvested. So parts of christianity (maybe more than is realised) maybe 'borrowed' from pagan beliefs and practises..they had something about the icronography of jesus on the cross and its possible pagan origins...but i don't think i will try and explain that one...this is why i need some help... Its a shame , i am trying to explain the best i can. The actual link has a small fraction of what was actualy in the programe. It also talked about king arthur and the sword in the stone ... the sword in the stone being the actual process required at the time to make a sword (or anything that needed shape and form).. a 'wizard' would use 'alchemy' to make iron (i think) in a mould of stone .. anyone witnessing a metal object coming from a stone would be amazed and easily influenced by such a person. This is why (i think) pagans were worshiped and feared.
I wish the link you referenced would have listed their sources. The idea of proto-democracy among the Ancient Celts is either interesting or a bit of revisionist history. To my knowledge they were a very class conscious group of people.
I'm no expert on Paganism, but from what I've seen and read over the years, it seems to me to be just as stuck on ritual and so on as most other religions, and in some cases, more so. But its such an amorphous term - I'm sure there are people calling themselves pagans who hold diametrically opposed sets of ideas, and whose practices vary wildly. Probably, its not wise to place too much trust in the content of one tv show - by the very nature of the thing such docunentaries tend not to go very deep, and in a case like this, where there is such diversity, may ignore completely whole major areas of stuff.
I guess all religions have their sticking points. Branches of Christianity are as hung up on 'correct' belief as branches of Paganism are hung up on ritual. I don't understand that either--- what difference does it matter what I believe if I live a good life in a good way? And since when do we really get to choose what we believe? I can't believe that the sky is green with yellow polka dots just because I want too, nor am I able to believe that "God" (however you define it, him, her, him & her, and/or them) is the sole property of anyone faith. Both conflicts with my own logic. Ritual is good for two things that I can think of right off. In terms of groups it binds a community together without trying to force beliefs. Second, in terms of both individuals and groups, it focuses our awareness on those things we hold sacred. You might like to look up the word 'puja' on Google for some Hindu thoughts on this.
Your probably right..as someone that knew very little i may have took what they were saying as factual rather than speculative. I noticed that the actual link for the programe skipped over most of what they were saying in the programe. The link was prety much bog standard rather than wide ranging like the actual programe....not sure why. I will...
Paganism is based on mysticism, it's (in a way) one in the same... Actually, it's kind of right, although howling is a personal preferance. Many pagan religions don't specifically pin point ONE PERSON to be the more mystical or powerful one (like Catholics have priests or Jews have Rabbi's) Rather, everyone - once you know how to tap into it - has that energy or power. Paganism (although a vague term) does practice out in nature, so stones, trees, moons etc are all part of the worship. Religion is only as superficial as the person who practices it. There are many so called Christians who sin all week and worship on Sundays, there are many so called Wiccans who are nothing more than Marilyn-Manson-gothy-looking-wannabe 13 year olds. couldn't agree with you more.
I've heard that about the red and white mushrooms (Amanita Muscaria) representing santa clause, also reindeer supposedly love eating them and their called the fly agaric, flying reindeer. Plus they grow mostly under trees like presents from nature. But those are all just coincidences I think. I have been reading a lot lately about the things Christianity may have 'borrowed' from Pagan beliefs. I thought it was interesting how Christians decided to celebrate the birth of Jesus on the same day some popular Pagan religions of the time celebrated the birth of their God-men. The thing that stuck out the most to me was the similarities between Horus, one of the Egyptian Gods, and Jesus. Their lives are almost exactly the same, but Horus was written about around 2,000 years before Jesus was.Theres a nice comparison chart at the bottom of this page: Parallels between the lives of Jesus and Horus, an Egyptian God
Thank MellowMagician, how did you find this thread (small details) Anyway thanks for sharing some thoughts it. I think it was to not upset the natives, that early christian pilgrims decieded to attach certain beliefs to pre standing beliefs. I suppose it was like the romans 'conquering' a nation allowing ther 'customs' to survive therby not pissing the locals off as much. Easier all round (i guess you appreciate that). Over this last year (yeah this thread is that old thats why i wondered how you found it). I have read a lot on this here there and every where (i learnt to spell a bit better also). I never became a 'pagan' but given a list to check of i probaly am in some ways ??.. I don't have any candles, bat wings, or broomsticks though .
Actually cerridwen found the thread and brought it back to the top. I think your right about the reason Christians incorporated Pagan beliefs but it's the striking similarities between the Christian god-man (Jesus) and the Pagan and non-Pagan god-men (Horus,Krishna,etc.) that were around before he was supposed to have lived that really struck me as interesting. By the way I don't have any candles, bat wings, or broomsticks either
oops.. Thanks cerridwen, still thanks to yourself though for responding. Thankyou for clearing a few things up cerridwen, the reason i did not pick up on your post was because i assumed you had been one of the first to respond (all that time ago). Anyway i appreciate you response. Stereotypes are based on facts i guess, so my pre concieved notions though seemed slightly mocking, where not far off ?. I think it was the reasons behind the 'rituals' and paraphernalia that i did not understand (i am more informed on them now). When jesus rises again, i don't think it will be the old one rising. Just a more 'modern' version.. Eventualy all (ok most) beliefs crumble under there own hypocrisy/faults and flaws or just plain ridiculousness (egyptians/pyramids/etc etc ) only to arise again as something new, this has happened (so it seems) with different versions of the one 'story' re-apearing over and over with bits and pieces all mixed up.
