But now it's ok, to spread disbelief? God stopped caring if we all go to hell? Jesus saves, they say, but they also say most people won't be saved (the way to hell is wide and the masses follow it, the way to heaven is hard and narrow, and few make it). More rationalization, ryu. What I think Christians should have done, long ago, was throw out the whole OT, and just be their own religion. The OT is for Jews, and Christians don't follow Jewish law. The only thing that matters to Christians is the Creation story. Everything else is just contradictory to their own central tenents. (for example, their god is love...but he smites whole nations, including the women, children, and even the livestock...)
yeah I like the NT a lot, its the OT that drives me away fro christianity. its like the people of the OT and NT are talking about two completely different Gods. One of cruelty and evil, and the other of kindness and love.
It's not the only option. You can choose to be dishonest with yourself and God (but God knows you are dishonest, so why would God respect you?) and be a sychophant. Or you can have a love hate relationship... I prefer to feel love for God, but honestly, some things about God piss me the fuck off so I yell at God about them (not out loud, that would be crazy). Not that I really don't want to be with God, but sometimes.. I tell ya.. You can't live with God, can't live without God. Maybe God is trying to give humanity a sense of humor....
There is only one God, so if you start pretending there are lots of Gods, you are gonna imagine a lot of stupid shit. Not necessarily. One of the ways for an unbeliever to get over their unbelief is to go to the afterlife. If they are all worried about dying and getting as much from this world as they can, it is merciful to kill them and send them to the next so that they learn not to worry about death. There is also the possibility that we are all being used to build something for God and God throws away those who are not useful, but keeps those who are. In which case I am screwed (God agree's with me on this one- probably the 'I am screwed' part).
It's just the way things are. An innocent does not understand many things in life until they are exposed to them. Think of Sin as innocence, everyone is born with it, and you need to loose it in order to enjoy life to the fullest. "Look sis, mom and dad are wrestling, let's go help mom!" You ever watch horror movies? Some people are really into them. Guess what, some people like war movies too! Wierd, huh? Did you ever consider that God is doing this "evil" stuff to entertain you, and knows that despight your complaints about it you secretly enjoy it? Duhh..
you could think about it this way...if you go by a literal meaning for Genisis, God created man is His image...man, then does evil things, so who's to say that those things, God cannot also do... thats why i think the OT is mainly metaphorical and unliteral, the Mark and Luke gospels are pretty well exactly [they may have missed a couple things from not being there that day or something, you know, got the exact facts slightly wrong, they are only human] the life of Jesus, while the other two are a little more imbelished, but still faily accurate...and i havent made up my mind on the Letters yet...or Acts
i tried to, as much as i could with my beliefs and limited knowlege...saying that i dont find the OT to be literal...i hope someone may give you an answer that you are loking for though good luck
I meant that this is a 'trash can' compaired to heaven. I grew up in the country AND in cities. Bloodthirsty? OK... whatever. And thanks for the explanation. Where does my 'dogma' say that babies are sinners?
RE: Infants and miscarriages are innocent. They go to heaven automaticly, so stop spreading half-knowledge. And God has revealed himself to everyone at some point, if they reject Him, that's their fault. God's a very just God. Please find me the Bible verse that says this. As far as I know, there was this verse saying only those that accept Jesus will be saved. One cannot accept Jesus in utero.
Original sin, all children are born with the stain of sin. That is why the Catholics baptize so early, way back early in the church, they were afraid of all these babies, who often die early, going to hell. Maybe that tradition didn't carry over into Protestantism, but the concept of original sin did. And yes, bloodthirsty. Remember all your rhetoric about blood sacrifices? Add to that God's commanding the Jews to destroy this or that ENTIRE nation (men, women, children, chickens, cows, goats, etc). Keeping in mind that those people are God's children just as much as the Jews are. Why didn't those supposedly "wicked" people get a chance for salvation? Why were they just ruthlessly killed? If God wanted to give the Hebrews some promised land, why didn't he make more land, rather than have to murder the indigenous inhabitants? Of course, I'd say that those parts of the OT are just propoganda to the ancient Jews, where the priests told the people that God commanded them to destroy this or that city, just using God as an excuse or rationale for war. But since you believe the entire Bible is Gods True Word, you have to somehow rectify these seemingly evil commands for war, with a God of love.
i'm also curious about this, so i'll bump the question. infants and miscarriages go to heaven regardless? at what age does responsibility land on the shoulders of the child? and then what is the point of baptising a child into christianity before this age? thanks, sophia
The Bible never said that children have to be baptised. That's a Catholic dogma. But I think it's nice that they're so worried about it. Responsability lands on the shoulders once they know what they're doing. One cannot be punished for not knowing, that'd be unjust.
Then, there is no original sin if a child doesn't follow his parent's ways (assuming the parents are sinners) and instead puts full faith in god. no need for baptism, or Jesus, because Jesus came to resolve original sin, to buy our way out. But original sin, according to you, only takes effect some time after the age of responsibility (is that the term?)...so one could bypass the whole ordeal if they were raised to trust in God. What a tricky religion, lol.
-is the 55 year old man living in timbuktu who's never heard of jesus going to be saved upon death? though he is not a child, he did not know. -at what age does a child acquire personal responsibility for faith, and is no longer under the safely umbrella of 'children's salvation'? -what about OT traditions of the parent's sin being passed onto the child? was there once a time when children were not born sinless, when there was no children's salvation to be had for free? -where in the bible does it say that those who did not know, and thus did not believe in jesus' divinity, will be saved? -if infants and miscarriages are innocent, what of original sin? are we not born into sin, then? do we only acquire sin once we acquire responsibility for faith, whenever that age comes? as well: why does(/did) God, in all his infinite Glory and Wisdom and Goodness, require of his Humans to perform strange animal sacrifices for his pleasure? In what way would the ritual slaughtering of an animal and the scattering of its blood please the almighty Creator of the Universe? Is GOD not above such strange and petty rituals? And with such preciseness he commands the slaughter! Is this being truly the Creator of all this vast universe, really? 3 " 'If the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, he must bring to the LORD a young bull without defect as a sin offering for the sin he has committed. 4 He is to present the bull at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting before the LORD . He is to lay his hand on its head and slaughter it before the LORD . 5 Then the anointed priest shall take some of the bull's blood and carry it into the Tent of Meeting. 6 He is to dip his finger into the blood and sprinkle some of it seven times before the LORD , in front of the curtain of the sanctuary. 7 The priest shall then put some of the blood on the horns of the altar of fragrant incense that is before the LORD in the Tent of Meeting. The rest of the bull's blood he shall pour out at the base of the altar of burnt offering at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting. 8 He shall remove all the fat from the bull of the sin offering-the fat that covers the inner parts or is connected to them, 9 both kidneys with the fat on them near the loins, and the covering of the liver, which he will remove with the kidneys- 10 just as the fat is removed from the ox sacrificed as a fellowship offering. Then the priest shall burn them on the altar of burnt offering. 11 But the hide of the bull and all its flesh, as well as the head and legs, the inner parts and offal- 12 that is, all the rest of the bull-he must take outside the camp to a place ceremonially clean, where the ashes are thrown, and burn it in a wood fire on the ash heap. A sin offering to the Creator. We sin, it bothers him. So we slaughter an animal and scatter its blood in the appropriate directions, places, etcetera. And he is appeased? I don't care if we don't have to do it anymore thanks to Jesus. If God is the Creator, and an unchanging God, for him to have ONCE requested such absurdities, if for me to reject the concept of him as a God. Please explain if possible. Sophia
your verses you have are all from the old testament. i was once told that god had to had out punishment and death because the people would not have learnt. he didn't want people to suffer any more for what wrong they did, so he sent his Son to suffer for them. you may ask "why didn't he do it sooner?" but think about it, we don't know how long this world will last, so the time it took may only be a second in comparison to the age of the World, like ten years is nothing to us now.
God reveals himself to a person atleast once in their life. There were some people in Africa (don't remember exactly where though), and the chief of one of the tribes had a dream about Jesus and the Father, they were talking to him...eventhough they never heard a thing about Jesus. The whole tribe got saved. They kept on calling Jesus "God's son". "God's son said-", "God's son did-" I don't know when. 'the sin passed on' remains today, if the parent hasn't repented. But I doubt a baby would lust after everything that moves, or thet a baby would try to murder people. The sin shows up later, when they're older. Same with sin itself. They don't understand the concepts of those things when they're young. No verse suggests this. Once they understand the concept of sin, of doing wrong things, they'll be able to sin. And we all have sinned. I'll explain it as simple as possible: Only innocent blood can cover sinful blood. Jesus was the last sacrifice, he was innocent, eventhough he was human, this made the sacrifice so powerful, that it didn't just cover, but wash away sinful blood.
beautiful, trippinbtm. i was having a conversation about this very concept only a few days ago. it is a shame that christians feel tied to their jewish roots when clearly, if the old testament was abandoned they would have a lot less apologising to do. how, though, would jesus have gone about convincing the multitudes of his divinity without some religious back-up? a curious idea. yet now, it is a religion firmly on its own two feet and running... the old law is gone and forgotten, or is it? Matthew 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law,till all be fulfilled. Deut 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish aught from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deut 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. Prov 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar. sophia
this is regarding OT directions to murder unbelievers. you would support this sort of action to 'help' the person understand their mistake? horror, kharakov! first of all, who's to say that an unbeliever is 'all worried about dying'? you presume a little much about non-christians. as for it being merciful to kill an unbeliever and send them to the afterlife... you believe in hell, i'd assume. therefore by killing the unbeliever aren't you just whacking off those remaining years that he/she could have spent coming to realize god, and thereby pass the punishment of hell? i'm at a loss to understand how killing a person and sending them to hell to prove they were wrong, is a better way about things than just letting them be as they choose. on another note, you seem to have an interesting christian view, or at least a belief in god that as i read your posts i do respect, and when i get a minute one of these days i think i'm gonna pm you with a bunch of questions. haha sophia
1. how do you know? what is your basis for this? 2. then why are enormous populations not christian? is god not very good at revealing himself personally to people, or are humans simply better at spreading the word than he is? then, (again), how do you know? [this is regarding your assertion that children up to a certain age are granted a "go straight to heaven" card if they die.] this contradicts your earlier statement then, that children up to a certain age are innocent. clearly they are not innocent, only the action of the sins upon the child's soul has not yet been made. ok, then what's the backup for an assertion that people who don't know about god would be saved? also, does this not also contradict the above statement that everyone in the world is introduced to god at one point in their lives? so because of their parents, they're sinners. but they don't understand the concept of sin/doing wrong things. therefore they are unable to sin. i don't understand...... are babies sinners, though they haven't sinned? if so, and that seems to be what you're getting at, how do they qualify for a 'go straight to heaven' card? i understand the concept of jesus' sacrifice. however this doesn't explain what i was really asking: i'll quote it again. why does(/did) God, in all his infinite Glory and Wisdom and Goodness, require of his Humans to perform strange animal sacrifices for his pleasure? In what way would the ritual slaughtering of an animal and the scattering of its blood please the almighty Creator of the Universe? Is GOD not above such strange and petty rituals? And with such preciseness he commands the slaughter! Is this being truly the Creator of all this vast universe, really? ... A sin offering to the Creator. We sin, it bothers him. So we slaughter an animal and scatter its blood in the appropriate directions, places, etcetera. And he is appeased? I don't care if we don't have to do it anymore thanks to Jesus. If God is the Creator, and an unchanging God, for him to have ONCE requested such absurdities, if for me to reject the concept of him as a God. appreciate the reply.... =) take it easy, sophia
