Your thoughts on Abortion...

Hey dude, sorry if you took me the wrong way. I will hear you out, but it will be hard for me to talk Bible with you because I can't take you seriously if you don't even take the scriptures seriously.

Well you sure figured out a way to twist that one around! Good job!!

What I was alluding to, is that you said that God says to obey the laws of the land. So therefore if homosexuality were legal, you were saying that it'd be okay in God's sight because he says to obey the laws of the land. So I was putting it into perspective for you that God never changes. He's the same yesterday, today, and forever. That said, God is obviously opposed to homosexuality, and if the law makes us defy our Christianity, then we are to not follow those laws. When the antichrist comes into power, the law will be to take the mark of the beast. Will you do it just because God says to obey the laws of the land?

 

NO, what you said was this:

Don't play dumb... you know that statement was directly pointed at her and intended to strike a nerve.

 

i never said i dont take them seriously...but right now, in my faith, i don't believe many of the accounts in the OT to be 100% accurate...im sure they are all based off real events, or are acctuall events, with no need to embelish the facts [for example, lots of the stories of Moses and the prophecies]...it is only the OT [well, and Paul, i havent got through the all of the gospels yet, ir eally should, but im a bad procrastinator] that im really not sure on...that is why, whenever i will quote something, i will try to use a gospel first, then a Letter, then the OT...

i do see what you mean...but i just dont like thae antichrist reference whn alluding to homosexuality...and if you want to get technical, the Law, it will change when "everything" is fufilled [Matt 5:18]. I'm going to take from what i know of you, and say that then for you "everything" will mean the second coming. But listen to me on this, could not "all is accomplished" [the exact wording will depend on your version] mean the ressurection, and the delivery of the Holy Spirit to the diciples, and then the ascention?


mind you, this is not really the place to debate our own faiths, if you would like we could PM each other and continue this aspect of the debate, to maybe let this thread get back on topic...i accept at least partial responsibility for the de-railment

 

Your thoughts on Abortion...

The Abortion Issue is NOT about Abortion itself.

The Abortion Issue is about the sexually inadequate male, and his fear of Woman and Woman's sexuality.

The sexually inadequate male must coercively gain control over Women's reproduction, OR those weak 'males' would always be rejected by Woman.

Lose control over Woman's reproductive freedom and the weak inadequate 'male' would no longer be able to sexually coerce Woman.

Don't be deceived by the crocodile-tears of morality shed by the Conservative Christian White 'Male' Establishment over Abortion.

Because this sexually insecure Establishment, in its entire history, has never stopped at any immorality that would gain it Sexual Power through political, economic, or religious coercion.

Such weaklings can never get or keep a Woman except within a Patriarchal Culture where the sexually insecure can coerce Woman by controling their reproductive freedom.

Patriarchal Culture, like our Judeo/Christian Culture is a Woman fearing culture.

Patriarchal Culture is a fear-driven vengeful response of those weaklings who were pushed-around in the tough school-yards of life.

Such as the weak Hebrews humiliated and pushed-around by much tougher nations in the tough school-yard of the Middle-East.

How do humiliated and insecure men, who always have their lunch money taken from them, keep a Woman?

By Patriarchal coersion of Woman's Reproductive Freedom.

Similarly, it's no coincidence that Conservative Christian's began to rise, in their vengeful Anti-Abortion response, immediately after the Vietnamese and Black Freedom movement humiliated the insecure White Male Establishment.

 

I'm not playing, but I hope you are.

All statements are designed to strike a nerve.

She responded appropriately "and yours as well", which I agreed to. I do not know all of the reasons for what God does- I do not even know all of what God does. I do know my statement was correct and made at the correct time. If a statement (such as mine) wounds somebodys pride- that is good. People should be humble before God.

 

Well, to those who think that it's wrong and should be illegal...

Abortion is legal now, and should stay that way. Why? It's SAFE. If it's made illegal, women will do it anyway, which could be dangerous, even fatal. Basements and upstairs in someone's house is not the best way to perform sugery, and I'm sure you'll agree with me there.

 

Your quote is from the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus was telling the Jews how perfect they would have to be in order to get to heaven if they lived their life by the law. At the end, all the Jews present knew that know one could be that perfect. So the question came, who could be that good? The simple answer was, no one but God. The story of the two men fighting given in the Old Testament, was an example of how God values life. When Christ died on the cross, we passed from the law, to the age of grace. Yet the killing of the unborn is still murder. And as Jesus said, no murder will enter into the Kingdom of God. There is a higher court than America's Surpream Court. And their rules of law will be of little use to those who stand before the Judgement Seat of God.

 

Did you ever consider that the children that are 'aborted' are just taken by God to another world that is more appropriate for them?

 

wow...ok, can i see if i get this...you believe that when Christ died on the Cross and with the ressurection and everytihng, that gets rid [well, not "gets rid" of it, but passes us from] of the Law? if so, thank you...you are maybe the first person i have ever seen say that [i think, there may have been someone else, but i doubt it]...thank you...


back onto the topic...i guess the sermon on the mount bit really didnt have anything to do whith what i posted, but i was kinda just trying to use back-logic...sometimes it works, others it doesnt...i guess this time is a time it didnt really...

i still doubt i will change my mind on this...my "official" opinion is opinionless...i dont believe, and have for a long time, that it does not matter to our righteousness where our opinion is, it matters to our righteousness what our actions are...

 

the morality of abortion is for the individual to decide. keeping it legal ensures this. pro-lifers, do you feel annoyed because other people aren't subscribing to your view? because they don't hold the same beliefs as you and that their actions are an afront to your religion? well i've got news for you, no one is the same. we all have different opinions, we all have different views of morality. the cow is sacred to hindus, and they do not eat it. yet how many of you have eaten beef? who here can say that they have eaten pork? this is prohibited by the jewish faith, but you don't see gangs of angry jews harrasing people who eat sausages!

to push for the illegalisation of abortion is to push your views upon others, others who do not nessecarily share your beliefs. it is wrong of you to arrogantly stamp around assuming that your views are the right ones and everyone else must follow you.

stop quoting from the bible to 'prove' your points! the bible and the church are no longer relevant, they are outdated belief structures that powerful men have kept hold of for years because it prevents the thing they fear the most - the loss of thier power. if you believe in god then don't try and know him as some angry bearded man in the sky who will strike you down if you disobey him, you claim to know gods love yet fear his wrath. know god in your own way, not in the same way that has plagued mankind for the last thousand years - how many people have died in his name? do you really think god wants people to have their lives cut short and suffer horrific deaths just to make himself feel good?

bill hicks said if you're so fucking worried about the kids then why don't you stop locking arms and blocking abortion clinics and put your energies into finding a child that's already here thats very alone and needs someone to take care of it? i'll look after a child any day before i protest to save a clump of cells.

do you think god wants you to tell people they're murderers simply because they had to abort a child that they couldn't support? if you rich crackers weren't so busy living your comfortable rich lives and taking up more resources than you need then less people would be living in sub standard conditions and they might be able to live a life where they can afford and support a child.

the world will not be a happy place until rich white folks can stop thinking they're better than everyone else on the fucking planet, you self righteous fucks.

 

Does Xenu escort the aborted fetuses to this other world and attach their alien soul to some otherworldly Scientologists?

 

If it weren't for Christianity's attack on the sacred femenine, and the sanctity of physical union, there wouldn't be such a stygma around pregnancy, particularly that of single women. It's because of this stygma that many women choose to abort. So get down of your high horses all you christian FOOLS. Christ may have been a good bloke, but your bible is an invention of the ruling classes to keep you in your place, under their bespoke shoes.

 

The Bible is far from out dated. The fact is it is a book that is light years ahead of it's time. The Bible clearly states that at the end of time this world will turn from the truth of God, and will become a very evil place. The Bible states that at the very end of time, the Jews will return to the land of Israel, they will retake Jerusalem and they will be surrounded by enemies. This will be one of the signs of Christ return. The Bible states that when Israel becomes a nation again, the generation that is born at that time will not pass away untill all end prophecies of the Bible will be fulfilled. Another sign will be Jerusalems East Gate will remained sealed in that day and all attempts to open it will fail. The Moslems found out about the prophecy and twice tried to open the Gate and break the prophecy. Both attemps ended with failure just as the Bible said it would. The East Gate in Jerusalem remains sealed today just as the Bible said. No one will be allowed to walk through that Gate but Jesus Christ when He returns. According to the Bible, America will be destroyed in one hours time and a very evil man shall rise up in Europe who will rule the world until Christ returns. Their are many prophecies about the end times to be found in the Bible, and the sad part about it is, those who say the Bible is just some outdated book, are really the one's who don't have a clue.

 

the sad part campbell34, is that the bible specifies NOTHING. its prophecies and predictions are vague and open to all sorts of interpretation. christians have been predicting the end of days in their time since the death of christ! what makes this time and your interpretation any more correct? are you really so arrogant as to believe that YOU, of all the people that have read the bible and hoped to see the end of the world in their own lifetime, are right? what makes you so special?

 

of the many things that burden me ,abortion is the one I least choose to discuss, mostly because it reminds me of my stepmother who has pro-choice bumper stickers covering the back of her car and I know what kind of person she really is , since she's catholic she can get away with putting on her good face in public and being who she really is behind closed doors. her fight for the unborn fetus is the only thing passionate about her and I feel certain it's because it gives her the chance to make other people feel like shit, by going to the places where she can join with others and drill young women who are going into doing something that is possibly the worst experience of a womans life.. and she joins along with the others who's words are trying to prove to the patient that shes going to become a murderer after she walks through the door. since I know one pro-life person all too well, and know she doesn't love all of Gods children because I know how she treated her own unwanted children after she married my daddy, and the daddy to three girls.
at least he is still our father.

that aside,
my thoughts on abortion are something that hasn't changed in years, and the last time I offered a portion of my solution to the entire issue to another group of people.. somebody called me a sick fuck and my username was banned from the community,.
so i'll try to explain the same thing again with at least 5x as much conviction.


The most disturbing issue that likely fuels most of the passion that the people are so dead set against taking away from pro-choicers, I believe,
stems from the fact that the fetus is literally ground up inside the womans body. That's one of the the worse images most people could percieve, and since images of what becomes of the fetus are available to those who would want to see it... for some people it's almost unimaginable that any species or creature would allow for such a thing to happen. Especially since the human life supposed to be a precious miracle of life, eventho' we have no regard to the obvious wasting of it outside of our little circle.
I guess Superman deserves the credit for what first gave me the idea of how the entire abortion issue could be resolved and so that instead of abortion being perceived as the destruction of life and provide people another excuse to fight in the name of God about, it could become something that might be the keys that open an airplane hanger sized door of possibilities in our ability to eliminate some of our diseases.

Make it so that ,
From the time a woman becomes pregnant and the 90 days that follow, she has the God given right to take the time to analyze everything about the woman she has become, what kind of mother she thinks she is capable of being, the way of life she believes she has the ability to offer her child,
her ability to provide a life of quality for, and who and how would the child be taken care of, or by, if she is not able to do so by herself.
If during that time she chooses to not bring another life into this world, because it is either unwanted by her, due to health or personal reasons, or she does not have the ability to provide for it, alone... then she can choose to not to do so.
After 90 days, plus or minus 3 days as a margin of error, the child will become hers and she will be held responsible to do everything within her ability and means to properly carry and deliver that child to birth.
It would also be her responsibility for the introduction of any narcotics alchohol or any other toxicsisities being introduced to her body, and she would be held accountable for contributing to the poisoning and endangerment of a fetal infant. If charged and proven to be present in the blood that flows through both the veins of her and her fetal infant, her sentence will read one word, death, and death brought about her on that same day, with child in womb. There would be nothing that the time of holding her in a cage could possibly change. The cause reason and evidence of her crime would be scientifically proven, made clearly obvious and unable to be contested.
As well, from the moment a woman makes the conscious choice to bring her fertilized egg to life, and absolutely after 90 days have passed from the time of conception, any and all forms of assault made on her body by another person would equal punishment x2.

Instead of the fetus being destroyed inside the womans womb, it's lifeless body would be removed then preserved in the most ideal way to allow the opportunity for the science of medicine to examine, explore and provide the samples for any and all methods of our science's ability to educate themselves with.
The science of medicine would also be obligated make use of to
the best of their ability and the finest of their tools to obtain answers to the mysteries of their field with each and every fetus. The utmost benefit would be intended to be gained by each one of their sacrifices.

Ultimately, what this gives us the opportinity to do is, have an opportunity to
retreive the knowledge that is there to be gained from the same form of life that we are currently wasting to be sucked down the tubes.

The result of what the pro-life pro-choice war has produced is nothing more than a group of people disgusted and outraged that the current abotion processing of a human fetus is allowed to take place causes them, and the remorse and other painfilled emotions a woman has to overcome after her choice not to bring another unwanted child to this world causes her. All they have done is generated more hate pain and depression that each side exposes the other one to.

I believe there are times and situations when it is not in the best interest of anybody concerned to have the task of raising an unwanted child in this world. Much less to have that life imposed upon you by a man or his laws.
The attempt to force a woman to carry and deliver a child she does not want, is nothing more than a good way to cause the self mutilation she would have to inflict on herself to relieve herself of the burden inside of her body.
I agree with those who would say her "i don't want it in me" attitude about it would have prevented this problem from happening , if she would have felt that way about, something else, a few days earlier.
But what I percieve as the only way to silence both side of a fight over a womans right to make her own choices concerning her body, and attempt to impose her to bring life to a child, would also eliminate the concept that we allowing the act of murder to be committed by grinding up fetus' and flushing them down the toilet. Instead of the 'spirit' that some people feel is born at the moment of conception being wasted, although the idea of them becoming a specimen in a scientific experiment does not feel like a very 'holy' thing to be done, I feel positive that upon being made available to science, the advances our medicine already has and an idea of what they could achieve
and what possibilities are opened to their world ... as a very precious gift.
so,,
as sick or gifted as you may think I am for even having these type of thoughts, know that I have considered them for long enough to feel like it is my responsibility to explain to you, one possibility to completely eliminate the fight over, eliminate most of the emotional suffering those women have to suffer, prevent the wasting of human life, and quite possibly one day provide a cure to an illness that you will not have to sit helplessly and watch as someone you loves mind or body , slowly deteriorates away.

the sad thing about this is, it would require the reconstruction of our current government standards and procedured to make the changes that would be necessary to offer us with such an opportunity.
it is also saddening that I or noone else has the opportunity to gain the power to do it.

well, at least I shared it and because of that i'll be able to move beyond worrying about this issue ......
... it's just one of those things.

 

Well some years ago I told God that I was kind of a blue collar kind of guy, and I believed His book but there was much about it that I did not understand. I told Him many people have different views about the Book and I was not sure often which view was right. So I ask Him if He would show me some of the prophecies.
Well for a year I waited and nothing happened. But then when my family went on vacation to my wifes uncle's farm, I took my Bible with me. For three days I could not put my Bible down. And for almost three days I did not no any more than I did when I started reading it. Then like a flood at the end of the third day, all of this information started to flow into my mind. Information that did not come from me. All of a sudden I had this knowledge. It's like someone took blinders off my eyes. I can't speak for other people, but when you ask Jesus Christ directly, it can bring on a very powerful experience. He works in His own time, and usually He moves in your life, when He is ready. I have had other encounters with Jesus. He is, the real SUPERMAN. The nations are not aware of it yet. But Jesus Christ will come to save the Jewish nation Israel from Russia when they attack Israel in the future, and Christ will remove from off the planet, those who truly love Him at the same time. The next 7 years will be days of horror.

 

No matter how you spin it, murder is never acceptable. Jesus said, ''whosoever harms one of these little one's, it would be better for that person if a mill stone was hung around his neck, and he was tossed into the depths of the sea.'' It is always the strong who can justify the murder of the weak, and then give high minded examples why this would help mankind. America is going to come under God's sever punishment, because of are murder of 40 million of our own citizens. The bible clearly states that our nation and our cities will burn and be destroyed in one hours time. If America only new how God views this nation.

 

I think abortion is a very personal situation. it depends. you also have to remember that it is not a real person yet with emotions.

 

I don't no who sold you that bill of goods but the unborn child is just as real as you and I. If you ever see an aborted child even in it's early stages you can see what a beautyful creation they are. Only an evil society of demented minds could think abortion is a necessary evil. I would hate to be a person that someday will stand before a Holy God and explain to Him how this procedure was necessary. It is apparent to many now that the baby while being aborted will try to defend itself as viewed on video or altrasound.

 

^will try to defend itself? how, & sources for this?
i am interested in how precisely we know when a foetus' mental activity even begins!

i think the big question is, when does a human foetus recieve a soul?

i don't believe the bible gives any information on this...

-what is a 2 week old zygote?
-at 11 weeks an embryo isn't male or female yet.
(i'd imagine the appropriate (male or female) soul would have to be injected into the body after this has been determined, right? ensoul too early and you get a man's soul in a woman's body or something.)
-when a 2 week old zygote divides into 2 genetic twins, does each only get 1/2 a soul?

ha ha

also, some of god's words to the worth of children which not only do i find disgusting, but make me question why he would be against abortion at all:
[Numbers 31: 17-18]
"Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man by lying with him. But all the young girls who have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves".
[Deuteronomy 2: 34]
"And we captured all his cities at that time and utterly destroyed every city, men, women and children, we left none remaining."

what??

god's having children massacred left right and centre in OT, but a 14 year old rape victim who has an abortion is going to suffer in hell for eternity.

my opinion: there are cases when abortion is acceptable. see above.