Agnostic female seeks same

Actually, I'm just looking for the company of a few good non-believers.

I've drifted away from other online forums because no matter what the topic is, it always ends up in a religious framework. Even a lot of "new age" folks end up talking about the "Creator" and how "He" or "She" will do such and such.

Whatever floats ones boat, but I'm tired of being put down because of my perspectives. I'm not looking to debate or convert anyone. I just want to find some kindred spirits (so to speak).

I'm not an atheist either, but I don't believe in a personified deity or a singular Creator/entity. I'm not into religion or rituals or secret mystery schools, (sigh) and these days that makes me an outsider to most people who find their identity in these concepts.

No one says anything up front, but it's obvious that they shut you out as soon as they find out you're not "one of them". They circle the wagons and the next thing you know, you're on the outside with the rest of "them heathens".

I'm no expert, and I'm not "enlightened" or "one of the chosen ones" just a person trying to surf the wave of this life/time. One of the hardest things for me is the isolation, so I'm hoping to find some folks here who can relate.

 

story of my life. It seems that people find it to be better to beling to another religion than theirs as opposed to abstaining from organized religion period. I think when someone main pupose in life is to be "saved", then its tough to comprehend what looks like others lack of desire to even try to get to paradise.

aww well.

Why are other agnostics so hard to find? I came to my belifes through logic. i tell religious people this when they ask about it. Most often, they say something like "Logic doesn't really explain things" or even "using logic sucks!". Its hard to argue with statements like those. but i guess thats why there are so few of us and so many of them.

peace (btw, you seem more "enlightened" than most)

 

Another night owl, I see. (Me too) I should catch some zzzz's though, but I'll be back tomorrow night if you're around. Thanks for the reply, I did a google search for agnostics forums and they really are hard to find even online, this forum was one of the few so I came here.

I don't feel bad about my perspectives, but I do feel really alienated sometimes.

Well, more later...

 

Wellmet Solaraxi

Yes, the chosen ones..occam never fails to be amazed at them.
Thousands of groups of chosen ones..all totally convinced they
are correct and all the others are fooling themselves.

Occam welcomes your company and your perspective.
Not into a group of circled wagons called agnosticism which puts down
those with different perspectves.
But to a group of minds that if they hold the agnostic position.
Are saying, WE HAVE NO WAGONS.
The idea of god is just that, an idea.
A theory..
YET TO PROVEN OR DISPROVEN.
Observation and reasoned questioning have led to this position.

For all the thousands of groups of 'chosen ones'.
All those millions of people.
Have yet to show this questioning mind anything to support their position/perspective beyond.................

"I believe it, so it must be true"
or
"All those people believe it, so it must be true"

To the bulk of humanity, that seems a good enough reason to believe.
To occam,, i'ts NO REASON AT ALL

All the best

Occam

 

Hi Occam,

Thanks for the reply. The last two days and nights I've been unexpectedly busy. I've only gotten 4 hours of sleep, so by the time I get a chance to sit down and post, I'm just exhausted. There are so many ideas that I want to explore with folks here. I am really interested in human perception and the nature of what is called "reality", which is much, much stranger than we can ever imagine, but it's fun to try.

​

 

solaraxi

Understood

Yes,, it really is fun.
Occams path is as a generalist. He tries to learn as much as
he can of all perspectives on what is called..'reality'.
That which we seem totally embedded in..
and supported in very existance by.

Due to the make up of human perception.
That it all gets tunnelled into electrical data for the mind
[hi neo]
Means that besides our one 'direct perception', our very minds functioning.
Everything else is second hand.
That means to work things out,, we need as many perspectives
as possible.

Any ideas you want to toss in the wok..just do so.

Occam

 

amen hehehe, just kidding, but i know what you mean. i dont know what the truth is, but i'm happy to be in a postion where i can ask.

 

I do not understand the significance of Agnosticism in one's Philosophy, similarly I don't understand why they dye M&M's when the majority of the people will never know/care one way or the other.

 

used to be the old _society of evangelical agnostics_ had their membership list...

 

Thumontico

To carry the analogy further.
Agnosticism is a whole bunch of people telling you. Your whole life.
with words , on TV . in movies. in books. In buildings you pass.
They even come to your door
That m&m's exist. And that the colour they like is the best colour
the one that means something...
Yet this one has not seen an m&m ever.
In any path of life, none have been observed. or the boxes
they come in.
That such a belief is had by such a large chunk of human society
certainly does impact on occams philosophy.
Agnosticism is the statement that such a belief exists to humans.
But does not say it is true or false.

It places ALL descriptions of god in exactly the same category as
"could life exist on the surface of a neutron star? possibly, we'd have too look.. but we cant get there..yet."
--------------------------------------------------------------
Also occam offers this
If agnosticism was taught in all schools to cover all religious questions to student up to 18
Then let THEM decide what to believe. [after 18]

Human religion would loose 90% of its flock in 2 generations.
this certainly IS a significant effect for a philosophy .

Occam

 

I'd sum up my agnosticism this way:

Organized religion is blasphemous.

 

Agnosticism holds that two mutually exclusive possibilities are equally possible in isolation because neither possibility is verily confirmable or knowable.

Isn't it far more efficient to judge whether something IS, when we see that it IS? This is Naturalism.

Agnosticism assumes possiblity #1. There does not exist a Supreme Supernatural Being, OR possibility #2. There exists a Supreme Supernatural Being.

This pressumes FAR too much already. Agnostics are naturalists at least to some degree because they at least question possiblity #2, because there is no Apparent evidence to support such.

Now, a naturalist looks at a stain on the subway wall and thinks perhaps a slushy mishap or whatever. The agnostic looks at the stain on the subway wall and sees a slushy mishap or whatever AND the work of Divinity. The latter option is only available to the Agnostic because he has the 'benefit' of 4,000 years of Mythology and Religion to draw from and sees this as credible and applicable to this observation or some Original diety or transcendental force may be at work. The Agnostic is in error because the stain, like God, exists only because unreliable Humans put the idea in his head, and not because of what is most probable or what can actually be proven.

I agree with you Occam that all Religion and Philosophy should be taught in Public school (unfortunately, I am sure teachers will emphasize their own beliefs), but from a Naturalistic perspective, not an Agnostic one. Agnosticism assumes the possiblity of God without proof, Education should be based on the verifiable or at the least the probable. Mythological literature (i.e. The Bible) should be treated as any other piece of literature.

I ask what significance the agnostic belief actually has on one's philosophy?
Is agnosticism an attempt to be static in ones philosophy? Playing the waiting game to see if God makes an appearance? If you are an agnostic that is against organized religion then I would assume your ethic is isolated from mainstream religion (God) anyway. So I assume you believe in the possiblity of a creator, a creator that is no longer involved in yours or anyone elses' life Personally. So then I ask you: God being inconsequential (whether he exists or not it does not affect you), what is the significance of Agnosticism in your philosphy? Are you not an atheist in effect and does your agnosticism not take a diminished role?

 

Thumontico

Wellmet..Thank you for the questions.
Have altered to red points in your post.
In order.
*Exactly, and also what is implied by what IS and the laws that we observe. The planet neptune for example was discovered using mathematics. Math, based on what was observed, said it was at X.. We looked and,, there it was.

*You suggest there is no apparent evidence for a 'direction of reality'
Agree in that...occam has stated that he finds no such evidence to support the religious descriptions of 'god'.
But religious descriptions of 'god' are not the only descriptions.
In fact, by occams understanding. Are the 'least reliable' , for they are emotion based.
Thus we get such pap as 'supreme supernatural being' lol

You assume that observation and naturalism sees no evidence of a 'direction of reality'
Yet you are a product of a massively complex and finely ballanced set of laws that results in a continuing evolutionary process that even facing entropy, manages to become more and more complex. From an expanding cloud of hydrogen to NOW, a titanic biological oganisation we observe every day on our planet. ANd a no less complex physical universe.
And this carries over into the next point..

*Are you not the one who 'doesnt even see' the stain on the subway wall?
Occams method to understanding must take the above observation as 'indicative evidence' of such direction.
A method based in observation and reason/logic. Not any religious fantasy.
That random undirected reality will not result in the massive organisation and structure we observe.

It is that 'indicative evidence', Apparent natural laws that drive reality to greater complexity moment by moment.

That force occam to hold the agnostic position.
Not the athiest.

Occam does not 'desire' to believe any specific thing.. He desires to KNOW, and has set up a self regulating system/method..to find out.
If that method says a thing is possible due to indications of such in reality.
Then that is what occam believes.

Like the discovery of neptune. The reality 'around the thing unknown'
May point us in the right direction.
So agnosticism is significant in occams philosophy,,It is held because
of the observed nature of reality itself. That minds that can philosophise
EXIST
When the position of existential 'chance'
says they
SHOULD NOT EXIST

Hopefully this has clarified occams perspective, for himself and you.

Cheers

Occam

 

Or to put it another way.

Occams agnosticism allows belief, and non-belief.
At the same time.

Just silly?

Just as silly as Quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle.
Where an electron is both a wave and a particle.
At the same time.

Occam simply emulates the observed world in his epistemology.

Occam

 

Occam, i do understand you. but do you care if people do? i mean you write, like, poetry. i agree with you on agnosticism, but if you wrote something less elitist (not in a bad way) it would contribute more to Mankind.

 

Antimatter235

Thank you.
That is one of the most positive comments occam has ever recieved.
And he understands the 'elitist' tag. Criticism only hurts those that have fear of truth.
What drives occam to post as he does.
In the tone he does.
Is to weild his only true strength, his mind, against the frustration he feels with his race, his fellow beings.
It is admittedly an arrogance. To speak as occam sometimes does.
In a tone of knowing.
This is again, frustration.

Occam posts here because this forum holds the greatest 'cross-section' of humanity. One that represents humanity before some Hi IQ place where everyone splits philosophical hairs for a hoby.
Here,, open minds wander without impediment.

Occam will say why he posts.
In poetry if it can be called that.

We are our power, and our understandiing.
We describe gods, yet DO, by our own efforts and thought.
The only kingdoms that ARE, are the ones we make.
But made by ego,, not reason/heart.
And all fall.
For that is the way of ego, mindless and self serving.

We can make reality our kingdom, not of fear and tribute.
But of love and Reason. Logic and compassion.
The heart and mind, working as one.
Just as we decribe a 'gods' way for us.
The path to understanding and peace.
That is the path we will take.

We have the tool...Your mind, occams mind, our minds
And our hearts and desire to make a thing real.

But the will?
Give us time.
For we have just now begun to think.
And just now begun to see what evil and stupidity really is.

Occam

 

I agree, natural laws determine reality's direction. But I ask specifically how this impacts your philosophy? God's impact on a Christian's philosophy is extensive: their ethics, their vocation, and in the entirety of their life a mindset of an ever present God.

So what is this force and in what way does it affect your ethic or your LIFE in anyway?

It takes me at least two tries to understand what you are saying half the time, Occam. The punctuation usually throws me off... but I still read it, which you should take as a complement.

 

Thumontico

Occams use of reason/logic to arrive at a position of agnosticism.
Does not effect occams ethic, morality or vocation.
For those things are also reached by reason/logic [and oportunity]
Maybe that is what occam is saying?
could it be
That an agnostic position and the holding of a 'direction behind reailty'
as possible.
Has no impact on occams ethic or morality other than establishing a position.
One that does not allow a prepacked ethic/morality based on other humans[or books] saying they speak for god.

Occam

PS..." gods impact"???
You mean "mans words about god" do you not.

 

But does a single stated opinion warrant half of a category?

Agnosticism compared to Atheism and Theism is extremely diminished in the impact it has on one's life.

Atheism, Christianity, Buddhism, and Existentialism are all broad philosophies that with them carry very different world views. Agnosticism is a single view that is pretty much inconsequential to anything.

To say your are Agnostic is to say you are an Atheist. (I am talking specifically about you Occam. Because most agnostics are unable to accept an existence without God, innate meaning, immortality, or unconditional positive reguard [from God]. They cannot get past the angst, which is why they hold out hope with agnosticism. It is fear and egoism that holds them back.) You, Occam, believe in a possible immanent natural force that should qualify as God? Why not call it The Natural Directional Force instead of God?

It is all confusing to me. Because for all intents and purposes you live the existence of an Atheist. The hallmarks of one who holds out hope for a Abrahamic God is the need for Comfort, Guidance, and Immortality among a lot of other things. You do not seem to need to get those things from a transcendental God.

Is an Immanent God conscious? What is the effect? Is pantheism simply an acknowledgement out of Fear?... Respect? If respect, then to what end? I don't understand.

 

Thumontico

No. Occam does not need a transcedental god to give comfort, guidance
and immortallity.

Occam looks appon humanity and life a different way.
That his very EXISTANCE is a gift of such worth, of such rarity.
That the the so called woes of human existance are nothing more
than POOR ME... For most woe and pain are delt BY US ..to ourselves.
The rest,, earthquakes , tornadoes? Suck it up people.
Have the wisdom not to worry of that which you cannot change [yet]
And guidance?
What guidance other than human words in a book?
Some relevant,, most not.

And lastly, immortality.
Occam will die....so what?
Without asking, he was given the greatest gift there is.
Self aware existance.
Should he spend that existance lamenting the end of it. want MORE MORE MORE
Is that not just greed and ego speaking.
By what law, what justice, do we demand more of that which we got for NOTHING
Ours?
Ha
Such arrogance, a childish arrogance at that.

The above perspective is the basis of occams optimism.
We must know ourselves and our position in reality. It's called maturity.
Humanity is not mature. It is still a child. And we are but children.
But there is a thing called time/change.
The NOW continues to action/process.
And we continue to learn.

Great isnt it?

Occam

PS..And why does agnosticism warrant half a category?
Aside from christianity, its the biggest forum at hip in 'religion and philosophy'
It's because it is a philosophy/position, ABOUT religion.
Its about gaining understanding by our own minds
Not accepting a 'truth' that others propose, which THEY accepted from others before them. And so on down the centuries.

Many do not accept that premise that religion knows anymore about the concept of god than any other thinking human being.