Hey, I saw a really disturbing programme last night on bbc2, about the inside of an abbatoir. The usual stuff i wasnt shocked at...animals treated badly, idiots not stunning them properly...and this was bad enough. But then they showed some guys from some religion or other, who claimed they needed to kill the animals when they were fully awake for religious reasons(what!?) Anyway, they killed this poor cow while it was fully alive and well...just slit her throat and watched her die...and this is legal here in britain because its part of a religion! Anyway, i was just wondering...is this legal anywhere else in the west? And if so what are peoples thoughts about it? I remain disgusted. Thanks-Maxi.Xx
I know some things about the muslim rites of killing a sheep for the AID. It is a symbol for when Abraham was asked to kill his son as a rite, but then instead was asked to kill a sheep. They give the sheep water to drink, to calm it down, then yes, they slit up the throat in a very careful way, and the sheep bleeds to death. This sounds cruel, but this is no more cruel then what happens in european and american slaughterhouses. It's actually a lot more gentle, because the sheep is cared for until it dies. Muslim meat must be HALAL, that is probably comparable to the "kosher" rules in judaism. There are certain rules that must be followed, one of them is that an animal is not suppose to see another animal being killed. Which is in Fact one of the things that causes the most stress for animals before the killing. I have lived in muslim countries, also during the Aid, and I have never heard a single sheep screaming of pain. they just stop giving off their usual sounds. The reason why I think this is a lot more "humane" then the factory slaughter in the western cultures: Only the cut hurts, and the pain of a cut is not that big, especially if the knife was a very sharp one, and if it's done properly. Then the sheep loses slowly it's consciousness, and dies which is not a painful process. Guess why a lot of suicidals use this technique.... I still am a veggie and believe that killing is wrong. But still, I believe there are killings that are more "humane" then others.
When halaal and kosher slaughter are done well they are at least as humane as standard methods--and in many countries a degree of stunning is allowed. When it is done badly it can be far worse for welfare than standard methods. Look into which brands of meat use welfare acredited slaughter houses and recommend them to your friends.
I assume the animals never scream in pain because with a slit like that the voice box is going to be disabled!... You were right about them not seeing other animals die, this is of course better. But i still found just the sight of it horrifying...ive never heard of this before. I suppose what it comes down to though, as youve said, is that all killing is wrong. Thanks- Maxi.Xx
There's nothing wrong with hallal/kosher killing. They use incredibly sharp knives to slice all the blood vessels in the neck in one cut - the animal doesn't feel anything. They actually have very strict rules about the sharpness of the knife. The programme was good, wasn't it? I was a bit disappointed that they chickened out of showing the gory bits in colour - a lot of it was B&W with nice calming classical music rather than squealing and the splashing of blood. Still, it was pretty honest. Interesting to see how many meat-eaters were disgusted by that programme - I bet quite a few were put off their dinner. There's something we can all enjoy, eh?
Well i can only comment on what i saw and i didnt like it one bit. That cow was alive and moving. It was funny to see the abbatoir workers distinct lack of intellect. I suppose an intelligent person couldnt do that job. Also, what was with that guy with the tattoos? He should have been looked at by a psychiatrist, methinks, and shouldnt have been allowed to work with knives. Thanx-Maxi.Xx
Yeah, the tattoo guy was clearly ill. The others were a bit simple, but not nutty like him. Both the religious killers seemed very intelligent though, didn't they? They clearly take their responsibilities very seriously - they talked about the value of life, and the jewish guy even said that "life is life - human or animal" (paraphrase). As for "an intelligent person couldn't do that job", I assume that's just a cheap shot rather than a reasoned statement. It's clear that anyone who could get a better job wouldn't work in a messy, unpleasant environment with antisocial hours and hard physical work. The same goes for being a cleaner in a hospital, a front-line infantryman, and a whole host of other jobs which we all depend on. You personally may not need the services of a slaughterman, but I bet you depend on a shitload of people who work these kinds of jobs. They should be looked up to, not demeaned - they're prepared to do things that you would never do, rather than spend their lives on the dole.
In the US, working in a slaughterhouse is very dangerous, and the pay is terrible. Benefits are usually inadequate or non-existent. As a result, most of the poeple who work there are recent immigrants and the poorly educated.
According to my morals, these people should NOT be looked up to. Being "on the dole" is a LOT more respectable to me. Moneys just something we need to live. Its an abstract concept, doesnt really exist. And to me this issue looks black or white. They can either get money from the government-granted its not good for them...theyre not helping anyone, and i admit thats not a good state to be in....OR, they could kill those animals daily...see the insides of their bodies, see them degraded and kicked and having tortured ends. And this is what really damages a man, and the whole of humanity. Not laziness. Anyway thats just my view and i know you wont agree. I just cant imagine how seeing what i saw that night EVERY DAY can be any good for the soul. I know id crack up. -Maxi.Xx
...I turned on the National Geographic Channel one time and they had this cute little puppy that all the children were playing with, so I figured the show was about dogs...then they showed the men taking the puppy and slitting her throat. Needless to say, I changed the channel. I respect their religion, I just couldn't watch it.
(quote) According to my morals, these people should NOT be looked up to. Being "on the dole" is a LOT more respectable to me. Moneys just something we need to live. Its an abstract concept, doesnt really exist. And to me this issue looks black or white. They can either get money from the government-granted its not good for them...theyre not helping anyone, and i admit thats not a good state to be in....OR, they could kill those animals daily...see the insides of their bodies, see them degraded and kicked and having tortured ends. And this is what really damages a man, and the whole of humanity. Not laziness. (end quote) It's easy for you to say that, isn't it? I guess you live at home? Never been on the dole? Some people think that sitting on your arse taking handouts is morally unacceptable. They would rather work in a harsh job than do nothing and be parasites on society. How can you possibly criticize that? It makes no sense. As for the killing, you have to accept that the society you live in and the priveledges you enjoy are built on killing. You may be having a teenage hissy fit about killing animals at the moment, but in the grand scheme of things you're only free to choose not to eat meat *because* of killing - animals *and* people. Those people who go out there and do jobs that have to be done should be respected, even by vegetarians. You may not approve of killing animals or people, but we wouldn't be here today having this lovely chat if it wasn't for killing. Good men sleep soundly in their beds because brave men are prepared to kill on their behalf.
From Gandhi's Experiments With Truth, Part III, Ch. XVIII He said this after witnessing dozens of sheep being slaughtered at a Kali temple in 1920. They told him, "The sheep don't feel anything. The noise and the drum-beating there deaden all sensation of pain." Ironic that people are still using that same argument after 100 years. They just don't get it, do they?
I find it sad that you saw my genuine concern as a "teenage hissy fit", just because you could see that i am a teenager. My concerns are as valid as anyone elses, as are my views. I was not disrespectful to you, and my point was put across as eloquently as possible. I cannot help being human, and so having the human emotions of anger, hurt, and a need to protect the weak and defend what i see as being morally acceptable. Your attack on me based on my age was a cheap shot, Jim. Also, you said "its alright for me, im living at home etc blah"....Why do you make these assumptions about me? I know plenty of people my age who do not live at home, who have other families, who have experienced life on the dole and have got through it. Infact my own family is not a well off one at all, with it just being me and my mum here, and me in full time education. I would suggest to you you try to open up your mind a little, to accept that younger people may have valid viewpoints, and to not assume things about people. Thank you- Love-Maxi.Xx
I was a idealistic teen-ager once too, and if I come across as being aloof or prejudiced it's only because I recognize the same tendancy I once had. I've said those exact words - "Money is just an abstract concept" so many times that it hurt. But food isn't an abstract concept - it keeps you alive. Do you know why the welfare state exists? Why it's even possible to go on the dole? Because of the War. Because millions of men fought, died and killed for you and me. Our whole economy is based on meat and animal products. Your possesions are all, one way or another, built using dead animals. It's very easy to adopt a political posture about these things, and make big fancy statements about how you'd never do X. But I'd bet that if you were in a position where you had to kill to live, within a week you'd be making jokes about the blood spattering. It's human nature to kill, and you've done very well in reining in that nature to the extent of being veggie; I applaud your self-control. But to start making moral statements about what other people do to feed their kids is insulting. And as for the 'teenage hissy fit', the adjective was applied to the fit, not you - I've seen forty-year-old men have teenage hissy fits!
I think its just the way you said it Jim...it sounded like a personal attack.:-S Anyway, I completely understand your point of view. Just cant say i share it. This is the point im at in my life....maybe youre right and my views will change. Until then, i will continue to fight for and discuss what i believe is right. Love-Maxi.Xx
