Yes War- No War

OK, so please let me know how you feel. I have had a delema latly becasue i live where i'm the only hippy in town. its hard when faced with so much fire. i need help in telling people exact reseons why war IS WRONG. Thanks.


I believe war is wrong becuase of everything going on there is just no need to fight over gas when we all are going to run out anyways, and why should so many people die, yes i know 9/11 but two wrongs don't make a right.

 

simply say:
if war is the the right thing to do, then why aren't you fighting it?

even senators cant dodge that one

 

this has NOTHING to do with 9/11! afghanistan... iraq... two completely different countries

WHERE ARE THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!?!

my best line is:

why spend all of our time and money in fixing someone else's country? it's none of our business anyway, not to mention, a good portion of them don't want our help. plus, we had already trained the iraqis and the afghans (in the '70's i think) and look where that got us. so... why use all this effort in fixing a country that you'll never be to? fix THIS country!!! with bush in the white house, and john roberts about to be appointed supreme court justice, we are pretty much beyond repair. so fuck them if they want to be ignorant assholes and SAY that they feel a certain way, but dont ACT upon it.

 

and what are you doing about it?

 

Perhaps if you stopped being so closed-minded and looked for people who dont foolishly call themselves "hippies", you'd find that you are not that only person in your town that is against the war.

 

the war on terror is the biggest oximoron ive ever heard

 

Philosophically speaking you can say war is wrong because 99% of the lives ended during war are the innocent. Proponents of capital punishment point to the destruction of innocent lives as a reason to impose the death sentence on someone. What does war do but destroy innocent lives? Can you truly say killing is wrong .... except? I'm sure many murderers can justify why they committed the crime, but when you get down to the nuts and bolts of it, can you really justify taking another's life or not?


Realistically, I don't know if war can ever be ended. Violence seems to be a trait that is ingrained in not only in human nature, but in nature as a whole. The most we can hope for is to only utilize war as a policy of last resort. I wouldn't say that I support the war in Afghanistan, but I do understand it. The people responsible for 3000 deaths on 9/11 were located there. I have no strenuous objection for what we did there.

On the other hand, the Iraq War is a complete travesty. SADDAM WAS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR 9/11. REPEAT. SADDAM WAS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR 9/11.
9/11 was not the cause of the Iraqi War. It was a reason used to go to war against Iraq. All the intelligence used to go to war has been proven to either have been totally false or vastly overstated. Sorry, anyone trying to use the original reasons for going to War in Iraq are either uninformed or flat out STUPID.

BY FAR THE BEST PROGRAM I HAVE EVER SEEN FOR THE REASON FOR GOING TO WAR IN IRAQ WAS ON PBS'S FRONTLINE: THE WAR BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.

I strongly urge anyone who has never seen this program (which I'm willing to bet is the vast majority of people) this is a must watch program!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is the link:
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/iraq/



!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I don't want to give it all away, but I will give you the rough outline of it. After the first Gulf War, Paul Wolfowitz (current Deputy Secretary of Defense) drafted a policy paper called Defense Planning Guidance. It was a paper considered too radical to be implemented by Bush 1 and Clinton. It was a policy not going anywhere the first year of Bush 2, but then 9/11 occurred and the neo-cons used the excuse of 9/11 to pursue this war on Iraq. Pursuing the War in Iraq was a war of hoped for future policy, not by any stretch of the imagination a war of need. Bottom line: primary reason for the war is for increasing American power and influence, no real threat to the country. Very evil indeed. I checked out sources after watching this program and they all check out. Most interesting of all, when the people involved with the policy talk about it, nothing is ever really denied.

 

It is too bad that all of the information or "facts" that we have to go by in judging the rational for the war in iraq is mostly all from the media of some sort (news programs, articles, interviews which can be edited). The only people who truely know "why" are the government officials themselves.

I recently read an article from a reporter who admitted that most media reports are biased simply because the media, in attempting to not show favoritism or taking a particular side, is intrinsically bound to play "devils advocate" against the person or establishment being interviewed, and so they may disproportionally stress an invalid arguement. This is truely a dilemma for us civilian citizens.

To tell you the truth I have no opinion simply because I really have no truely credible source of info. I'm also a bit surprised that so many people do have such strong opinions seeing that the only sources of info that any of us have is all heresay or just an opinion they heard form someone else such as a reporter or just another civilian.

Enless you truely know the direct and unbiased facts how can you truely justify thinking you know whats going on? Does anyone here have access to actual government records or documents?

 

Not being able to find the truth because of media bias is a crock of .... well, you know what. The media is not one big monolithic beast. I'm a news junkie and the basic news story is reported the same across the various news outlets regardless if it's considered left leaning, centrist, or right leaning. The variation comes from either the weight or the interpretation the different media outlets put on the story. You can find all the arguments from all sides on any particular news issue. Do you honestly believe a politician is going to give you the unvarnished truth on any subject? If you believe that you need to get out of the hippie forums because you have absolutely no concept what the 60's and 70's were about. It just wasn't the sex, drugs, and rock and roll man. The main driving force of those decades was the war and the reality how evil and lying our government really was. If your rallying cry is "support the man", you're out of place here.


The beauty of the frontline special I mentioned is the fact it isn't reporter driven. It basically tells the story in the words of the people responsible for the policy in the leadup to the War in Iraq. The Defense Planning Guidance is actually posted on the Internet. In this case you can read what they have to say 'in their own words'. The scariest thing I saw was not contained in the special, the scariest thing I saw was contained in that document, IN THEIR OWN WORDS. It really is worth checking out.

 

As Six Feet Under would say, "Nooooooooo warrrrrrrr!"

 

I believe some things are worth fighting for....... but not in this case with America and their low fuel supply. Gas can and probably will be replaced with water so it's not worth fighting for.

 

Well, I still don't truely believe anything just because it comes from anyones mouth. I'm not even saying they could be lyeing. Just what they say is their interpretation of things and I would rather base my interpretation on direct experience or hard evidence not someone elses interpretation of direct experience or hard evidence. I don't care what program you watch or what story you read it still has the potential for one side to be edited out and the other side to be enriched even if it is in someones OWN WORDS.


Besides, I'm not disagreeing that the govt may be lyeing to us, but if the gov't was lying don't you think they would be better at it and more convincing than they are. I mean they could have easily hoaxed the finding of weapons of mass distruction, but they didn't and have even admitted to not finding them yet. That sounds like a modest truth to me.

And if it is all about the oil, then maybe you should be preaching to the wastfull consumers who cruise around in their Hummers getting 8 miles to the gallon, while the rest of us have to either suffer the consequences of high prices or rely on our gov't and oil corporations to find more and cheaper oil.

In addittion I have heard directly from soldiers stationed at the "captured" oil fields that the oil is still in that hands of Iraq. This may not be true but I haven't heard any reports to contradict that either. It would be so easy for the US to take this oil but it hasn't, at least not yet. We are merely acting as security for the oil factories.

So, I think if the gov't is lying and is corrupt (which it may be) it sure isn't doing a very good job at it from my perspective.

 

say man, as i see it this war has nothing to do with the twin towers, well all feel for the familys and everyone affected by the attack, but theres no reason to milk it on this long, were not there for terriorism, and really its odd were there at all, make me wonder if gw has out attention on iraq to hide the fact that we still havent found osma bin laden, wasnt that the goal of the war when it started? and the excuse for iraq is wepons of mass destruction? well as far as i know we havent found nothin yet, so i guess its ok for a country that proposes "world peace" and "freedom" Liberty".. to demolish a forgin country remove there leader, and rebuild it the way we think it should be? people need to get there heads out of uncle sams ass and see the big picture, but sadly there whipped into the bullshit scandle gw states is right and glorious... bottom line is this, theres really no way to stop the war, even when me and some people from southwest pa tried to protest they tell us ware and when we can do it? give us a spot 4 blocks away from ware we want to be? whats the point then the whole point of the protest is so they will hear us, which is hard to do 4 blocks away.. i dont know, atleast we all can coinside with eachother ..

PeAcE & lOvE**

 

Don't give them too much credit. They're only human. No one's a perfect liar. There's always someone who can see right through the deception.

Could they have easily hoaxed the finding of WMDs? I imagine an investigation would have ensued which means they would have had to make the WMDs look convincing enough to persuade (probably) the UK and the UN. Blair would have taken it at face value, but I doubt a UN inspection would have. The US would have had to go through the trouble of hiding the WMDs and then recovering them. I disagree. It seems like it would be a lot of trouble.

Again, consider the fact that the government is as human as we are. The administration most likely has a bigger goal in its mind than finding WMDs. That goal is probably to eliminate dictatoral threats (i.e. Sadam). The elaborate cover-up isn't all that elaborate since it only had to persuade the public into a war. Once we were in the war, the public could be bypassed under the condition that since we started a war against terror, we can't just stop. We have to keep going and take out as many terrorists as possible.
Just as a disclaimer, I do not support the war. I don't even believe that most of the people we're killing are "terrorists."

 

Human beings evolve the fastest during periods of strife and desperation. When we suffer, we grow. We see that in little things as much as big. We learn from mistakes the same as we learn from pain. Is war a symptom of an easy life? Are we creating problems because we have none? Also, war in general is a muddy issue. Most people agree that Hitler had to be stopped. That includes war. Could it have been done any other way? Should we have let him carry on? This war in particular is an easy issue to argue. Of course THIS war is wrong. It was started out of politics and greed. We've never had a problem with their dictatorship before but NOW we do? Besides, Ossama Bin Laden was agreed to be the one that caused 911 but we're not even going after him! Instead our Great Tragedy is being used and corrupted for monetary gain. That alone is wrong. I have two friends and my cousin's husband, who are all in the army and have been to combat. One does not want to go back there. The other finds it easy to forget what they're fighting for but must find the reason within themselves to rationalize it. NO ONE wants to be there. Innocent lives are being destroyed for money, twisted ideals, corruption. That is wrong. But is war, itself, wrong? That's a different story. I have trouble answering that myself.

 

Feelingroovy, you seem to be an intelligent kid, but you have much to learn. You make a good argument, it just doesn't hold water. If knowledge would just come from direct experience we would still be living in caves and beating on rocks to start fires. We can eliminate all schools because the foundation of education is based almost entirely on indirect experiences. History ceases to exist, because once everyone is dead, there is no direct line to the events that occurred. Hard evidence is really a subjective thing. Like I stated earlier, news organizations all pretty much concur on the basic facts of any news story. The variations come from the read, interpretation, and weight news analysts put on any story or number of stories put together. Any individual can learn what the facts are, the majority of the facts are out there so you can make those decisions. Government hides certain facts, much information gets classified (tons of it that shouldn't be classified), but there is always enough information out there that you can come to rational decisions on issues. You can choose to regard or disregard any information you receive based on your own rational analysis, that's a basis of our freedom. I wouldn't have it any other way. In almost any situation, how many times do you actually have 100% of the facts on any story?


Government lies. This isn't a theory, they do. We have been lucky that there have always been people (some with noble intentions, some not) that have leaked classified information that points to the lies of government. Let's go over more recent history. The Pentagon Papers during the Vietnam War, Watergate and Deepthroat, the Iran-Contra affair, Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky, the Downing Street Memos, Carl Rove and the outing of Joe Wilson's wife. No one denies (at least no one that is sane) the basic facts of these events, the differences come from the interpretations and/or weight that people put on these events.

As far as not faking finding WMD's; why should they? The tale of the threat of WMD's was an excuse to get us into Iraq. By the time we discovered there were none, there was no reason to continue to insist that there were; the war was already winding down (or so they thought); mission accomplished! While Bush is a dim bulb, the people behind him are not. They weigh policies based on risk/reward, while faking WMD's could have big PR benefits, the risk of doing it would far outweigh any reward gained. If you closely followed this administration, like I have, you know their modus operandi. Stonewall as best you can the release of any information; any information leaked, make sure every member of the administration stays on the same story that is developed to explain it; don't address the issue directly, attack as savagely as possible anyone who leaks the information to divert attention; wait for the news cycle to pass the story by. Watch the Carl Rove - Joe Wilson story. It is a textbook case of how this administration operates. Can't say it doesn't work. Does anyone remember the White House reporter whose primary credential seemed to be that he was a gay prostitute? He was breaking stories that pointed to the fact that he was receiving inside White House information. The administration waited that story out and it eventually went away with no real resolution. What about the fact the White House was caught paying reporters to promote their policies and that that story came and went without any real consequences. The one thing I really give this White House credit for, is that they have done all their dirty deeds without any real consequence as of yet. Hopefully that is soon to change.

I have 2 friends and 1 nephew currently serving in Iraq. The war affects me directly. The war affects us all directly. Matters of war are far too important to be left to the politicians, especially the total pieces of shit that are currently governing us. The least the citizens can do is keep themselves informed.

It's funny, why have an opinion on the war? It affects a person more than practically anything else a person will experience in their lives. One friend served in 'Nam. He'll hear noises, like a helicopter flying by, and flashback to the war. Riding with a friend, drove by his uncle, and he told me his story: fought in Korea and the one thing he was always told by family was to never bring up his service in the war; it was far too upsetting to him. He still walks with a limp. Like I said, war is far too important of an issue to not have an opinion: for or against.

 

It's funny how so many people from World War II say that they fought so their sons wouldn't have to and then their sons go to Vietnam for the same reason, and now we have Iraq... Every generation has a war...

 

WELL SAID......

 

Some people believe that by fighting these wars, the extremists will somehow lose support. Of course, this is not the case. With every bomb dropped by the Americans, the terrorists tell their people "look, we were right" and recruit more and more people to their cause.

Today, America is less safe than it was on 9/11 and it will get worse unless tactics are changed.

 

It will take a long time for you to realise, but war is not relevant to the real crisis. The crisis of perception. I was like you at one time, but its pointless, what are you living for? You have to see that everything is related, its a cause and effect relationship. To fend off events is senseless, as the energy that caused them will manifest again and again one way or another.


Live your life, live it freely. Dont get caught up in personas. You will eventually see I am you, and you are me.