Why Jews don't believe in Jesus

I'm deleting some of the spaces in your post so they're easier to follow and take up less space. If this bothers you just let me know.

While The Chosen is a good book(imho), it's not really a good introduction to Judaism. And the Tanakh, the Jewish scriptures, isn't such a great introduction to Judaism either because it is only the written and not the oral torah. It also discounts all of the commentators and theologians who help to explain Judaism.

Careful. "Conspiracy theory" is a value judgement that's hardly useful in this conversation. I also have almost no respect for the "scholarship" of the Da Vinci Code. I think in general any Jew would look to the objective scholars and Historians to get their answers about what happened, if they care at all. I also never made that conclusion. I simply asked for examples that would prove otherwise.

This is all according to Church History, and since I consider all one-sided Histories, including those of my own people, possibly biased, you can understand why I approach this the way I do. I don't see any evidence in Philippians 2 for a trinity god.

That's not evidence of a trinity god. The spirit of God descends on many people and in addition to that, being called the son of God is not a title reserved only for Jesus.

ÒMy son, My firstborn is Israel..." (Exodus 4:22)

ÒThus says HaShem. Israel is My son, My firstbornÓ (Deuteronomy 4:22)

ÒWhen Israel was I child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My sonÓ (Hosea 11:1)

ÓHe (Solomon) shall be a son to Me [G-d], and I a Father to himÓ (1 Chr 22:10)

He has said to me "You (David) are My son. Today I have begotten you. (Psalm 2:7)

And God repeated ÒI, too, will make him (David) a firstborn, supreme over the earthÕs kingsÓ (Psalms 89:27-28)

A) God does not wrestle with Jacob. A celestial being wrestles with Jacob. B) What does the story of creation have to do with a trinity god?

In general beliefs about God remain vague and very varied. Maimonides' first few articles of faith give a general idea:

1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, be He Blessed, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.

2. The belief in G-d's absolute and unparalleled unity.

3. The belief in G-d's noncorporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.

4. The belief in G-d's eternity.

5. The imperative to worship Him exclusively and no foreign false gods.

There are some more, but those are the least disputed in all of the movements and the ones specifically related to the nature of God. Maimonides also suggested that when we attribute one of God's positive qualities to Him, given at Sinai, we're actually saying He is not the opposite.

But as I said there is a lot of room for variation in belief. I am a panentheist and I believe God only acts through the laws of physics, not to say there isn't some other level of the world we are less aware of. I believe there is.

But if God is not a duality, then there is no need for an other to love. If God is entirely lacking in duality, God can be pure love. But again, this all rests on your definition that God is love, which I think is lacking, and on your definition of what love is and what love needs. I can love myself. I don't even think I can begin to love someone else until I love myself. We say "love your neighbor as yourself" and this implies that loving oneself is natural for us. So too it must be for God, if love is your definition of God.

Who says God needs anything? A need is a human characteristic. Are you applying human characteristics to the Divine and claiming that this is the only true way to approach the Divine? Human terms are inadequate.

I love myself and I am not a trinity. Does that make me better than your definition of God?

His joy or his need; all semantics. You define what makes it just for joy. You define what makes it need. What if I said that joy is a need? We're just playing with words.

That label of sinner is a Christian one. There is no such thing in Judaism. It's okay to make mistakes. Where do you get this idea that any sin is so horrible? If sins are so horrible, why did God create us to sin? It's all a great big learning experience. We're growing as people and our sins helps us to do that.

Dauer

 

While The Chosen is a good book(imho), it's not really a good introduction to Judaism. And the Tanakh, the Jewish scriptures, isn't such a great introduction to Judaism either because it is only the written and not the oral torah. It also discounts all of the commentators and theologians who help to explain Judaism.


-No doubt



Histories, including those of my own people, possibly biased,



-Then where do you hope to get any accurate information if you
cannot trust the accounts of your own people? Intuition?
I guess you did mention other "objective accounts"; does that
mean accounts not affiliated with any religion. In that case,
it is very likely that they contain an even stronger bias because
undoubetedly everyone has an agenda. There's being to discredit
the Christian Faith.


I don't see any evidence in Philippians 2 for a trinity god.

-Philippians 2 starting at 16-17 I believe ( I don't have a Bible around)
is called the Kenotic Hymn. It describes Christ's decision to
give up his functional equality with God to die on the cross and
redeem his people.



That's not evidence of a trinity god. The spirit of God descends on many people and in addition to that, being called the son of God is not a title reserved only for Jesus.

ÒMy son, My firstborn is Israel..." (Exodus 4:22)


I do not know Hebrew or Greek so again I feel inadequate
discussing the etymology of the word son, but I do feel
comfortable discussing this in a general sense. God
called Christians in the NT sons of God; now, does this mean
that he lied to us, because, clearly his already has a son: Israel,
Christ, the collective group of modern day believers. The term
son is mearly a feeble attempt at describing in our terms what
the Trinity is. Obviously Christ did not simply come into
existence after being born to his heavenly father. He has always
existed in the Trinity, and has always been ontologically equal
to God the Father. He chose, as described in Philippians 2:6-11,
to become functionally subordinate in order to redeem his people.



1. Belief in the existence of the Creator, be He Blessed, who is perfect in every manner of existence and is the Primary Cause of all that exists.
2. The belief in G-d's absolute and unparalleled unity.
3. The belief in G-d's noncorporeality, nor that He will be affected by any physical occurrences, such as movement, or rest, or dwelling.
4. The belief in G-d's eternity.
5. The imperative to worship Him exclusively and no foreign false gods.


--I agree with these, except for number 3 of course.


I am a panentheist

---Is that a common trait among Jews?


I can love myself. I don't even think I can begin to love someone else until I love myself.

--Quite true, you cannot love others until you love yourself, but the
question is do you truly love yourself. It is easy to confuse true
feelings of love with simple desire or power lust. I think you will
admit that human beings are naturally selfish and obsessed with
little more than themselves. I would hardly call narcissism love or
equate the love God has for his children with the feelings we
have for ourselves. But at the risk of semantics, how do you define
love? In my opinion love must be freely given and reciprocal.


Are you applying human characteristics to the Divine and claiming that this is the only true way to approach the Divine?

--I am doing just that. The only things we know about God come through
revelation, a revelation that sinks to our level as human beings. In
other words, God comes down to our level in order that we might
understand him. Clearly if he did not do so our feeble intellects would
not be able to comprehend him. That is why the scripture is
written in human thought form and in language we can understand.


His joy or his need; all semantics. You define what makes it just for joy. You define what makes it need. What if I said that joy is a need? We're just playing with words.


--I think that is a cop out. Joy and need are very distinct words with
distinct definitions: I need oxygen because I will die if I do not
have it. Joy is something I seek or desire. And as I said before, how can one not seek to understand God by human definitions. It appears to me
to be our only option.



why did God create us to sin?

--He did not create us to sin. He gave us free will in order to have
a loving relationship with him, because, as I said before, true love must be freely given. We chose sin. He chose to redeem us through our choice, by
death on the cross-the ultimate revelation of the true nature of
God.


---I have a couple question. How do you, or other Jews, interpret the amazingly accurate predictions of Christ death found in Isaiah and Psalms.
Secondly how will you know when your Messiah has arrived?
What are you looking for?

 

Well, I think in general we need to come up with our own answers, but I trust a logical scholarly analysis more than some fanciful myths.

I read it. That's not evidence for the trinity. I want you to show me a passage where God is represented as three different entities that are one.


[quoteI do not know Hebrew or Greek so again I feel inadequate
discussing the etymology of the word son, but I do feel
comfortable discussing this in a general sense. God
called Christians in the NT sons of God; now, does this mean
that he lied to us, because, clearly his already has a son: Israel,
Christ, the collective group of modern day believers. The term
son is mearly a feeble attempt at describing in our terms what
the Trinity is. Obviously Christ did not simply come into
existence after being born to his heavenly father. He has always
existed in the Trinity, and has always been ontologically equal
to God the Father. He chose, as described in Philippians 2:6-11,
to become functionally subordinate in order to redeem his people.[/quote]

Sorry, but I just don't buy it. It was a common enough phrase. This is the wikipedia entry:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_god

Some Jews are panentheists. Some are not. It is understood anyway that God is everywhere, just not in physical space or in time. Panentheism is an acceptable variation of monotheism in Judaism.

One of the mitzvot says we should love our neighbors as we love ourselves. This implies that it is possible to love ourselves, and that we should love others just as much. Actually in Judaism there are two mitzvot. This one applies to other Jews. The mitzvah to love the stranger applies to non-Jews.

I don't lust after myself.

That's one of the things the mitzvot help to deal with. It helps us grow in concern for the people around us, and act on their behalf in any event.

You didn't really give a definition for love. You just said under what conditions it should be given. I will do the same since I think defining love would belong on the general board in its own thread. First, I don't think it's possible for love not to be freely given. It goes without saying. It cannot be taken against someone's will. But it does happen without being reciprocal. I can show love to someone who does not love me. It may become reciprocal but it does not have to.

Well, I would disagree with you about the nature of revelation. To me it is just an experience of God that leads to human answers.

Do you comprehend him any better than a non-Christian? What about people who claim revelation that have contradictory answers?

Or the Talmud is correct. It says "The Torah speaks in the language of man." And in this it means that concepts entirely beyond words are being conveyed in human terms, but God does not walk, or have hands, or become angry. Any anthropomorphism does not imply a humanlike God, but just that what is really going on could not be intellectually understood by us.

We could also accept that God is beyond mere human definition, and that if we ever use this language by saying Father or such it is only for our sake.

If we choose sin it is because God created a system in which we would choose it. I would think that sin must be far more helpful than all that, not to support hedonism. But that it serves a very important role in the world Hashem created.

There has been a lot of answering of these types of questions on this board over the past week. Please browse the other threads related to Christianity or J4J and then either post there or here if you have any questions.

I have no problem answering you, but I've answered all of your questions in the past week.

Dauer

 

bump

 

I've got some questions here:

Who's the son of God?

And will the Messiah be sacrificed for the World's sins?

And the Trinity was not made up after Timothy, it's in the Bible:

1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit ; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
NKJV

 

[Who's the son of God?]


God says the Jews are His son.

“My son, My firstborn is Israel..." (Exodus 4:22)

“Thus says HaShem. Israel is My son, My firstborn” (Deuteronomy 4:22)

“When Israel was I child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called My son” (Hosea 11:1)

”He (Solomon) shall be a son to Me [G-d], and I a Father to him” (1 Chr 22:10)

He has said to me "You (David) are My son. Today I have begotten you. (Psalm 2:7)

And God repeated “I, too, will make him (David) a firstborn, supreme over the earth’s kings” (Psalms 89:27-28)

[And will the Messiah be sacrificed for the World's sins?]


[no one can die for the sins of another!
Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. Exodus 32:32-33 (KJV)

The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin. Deuteronomy 24:16 (KJV)

Every man will die for his own sin!

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Jeremiah 31:29-30 (KJV)

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. Ezekiel 18:4 (KJV)

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. Ezekiel 18:20 (KJV) Repeats Verse 4 in Ezekiel 18. (above)

Then Ezekiel sums it up:

Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. Ezekiel 18:27-28 (KJV)]



And the Trinity was not made up after Timothy, it's in the Bible:

1 John 5:7-8
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit ; and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
NKJV


[The G-d of the Jews is not a Trinity


And besides me there is no G-d (Isaiah 44:6)

Here O Israel the L-rd is our G-d the L-rd is One (Deuteronomy 6:4)
​

The L-rd alone is G-d, The L-rd alone is G-d. (I Kings 19:39)
​

I, the L-rd, who was the first and will be the last as well. (Isaiah 41:4)
​

Know this day and lay it to thy heart that the L-rd, He is G-d in heaven above and the earth below there is none else. (Deuteronomy 3:39)
​

Unto you it was shown, that you might know, that the L-rd is G-d there is none else beside Him. Out of the heavens He made you, hear His voice, that He might instruct you. (Deuteronomy 4:35)
​

I am the L-rd your G-d . . . you shall have no other gods before me. (Exodus 20:2-3)
​

Before me no god was formed, and after me none shall exist. None but Me, the L-rd, besides Me none can grant triumph. I alone foretold the triumph . . (Isaiah 43:10-12)
​

O L-rd of hosts, enthroned on the cherubim! You alone are G-d of all the kingdom of the earth. (Isaiah 37:16)
​

Did not one G-d create us? (Malachi 2:10)
​

Do I not fill the heavens and the earth, says G-d (Jeremiah 254:24)
​

​

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear O'Israel, the Lord is Our G-d, the Lord is one.

Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.

Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psalms 71:22 I will also praise thee with the psaltery, even thy truth, O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.

Psalms 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

Psalms 89:18 For the LORD is our defense; and the Holy One of Israel is our king.

Isaiah 1:4 Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.

Isaiah 1:24 Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:

Isaiah 5:19 That say, Let him make speed, and hasten his work, that we may see it: and let the counsel of the Holy One of Israel draw nigh and come, that we may know it!

Isaiah 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 10:17 And the light of Israel shall be for a fire, and his Holy One for a flame: and it shall burn and devour his thorns and his briers in one day;

Isaiah 10:20 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

Isaiah 12:6 Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.

Isaiah 17:7 At that day shall a man look to his Maker, and his eyes shall have respect to the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 29:19 The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 29:23 But when he seeth his children, the work of mine hands, in the midst of him, they shall sanctify my name, and sanctify the Holy One of Jacob, and shall fear the God of Israel.

Isaiah 30:11 Get you out of the way, turn aside out of the path, cause the Holy One of Israel to cease from before us.

Isaiah 30:12 Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon:

Isaiah 30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

Isaiah 30:29 Ye shall have a song, as in the night when a holy solemnity is kept; and gladness of heart, as when one goeth with a pipe to come into the mountain of the LORD, to the mighty One of Israel.

Isaiah 31:1 Woe to them that go down to Egypt for help; and stay on horses, and trust in chariots, because they are many; and in horsemen, because they are very strong; but they look not unto the Holy One of Israel, neither seek the LORD!

Isaiah 37:23 Whom hast thou reproached and blasphemed? and against whom hast thou exalted thy voice, and lifted up thine eyes on high? even against the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.

Isaiah 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, and ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 41:16 Thou shalt fan them, and the wind shall carry them away, and the whirlwind shall scatter them: and thou shalt rejoice in the LORD, and shalt glory in the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 41:20 That they may see, and know, and consider, and understand together, that the hand of the LORD hath done this, and the Holy One of Israel hath created it.

Isaiah 43:3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

Isaiah 43:14 Thus saith the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; For your sake I have sent to Babylon, and have brought down all their nobles, and the Chaldeans, whose cry is in the ships.

Isaiah 43:15 I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.

Isaiah 45:11 Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.

Isaiah 47:4 As for our redeemer, the LORD of hosts is his name, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 48:17 Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

Isaiah 49:7 Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

Isaiah 49:26 And I will feed them that oppress thee with their own flesh; and they shall be drunken with their own blood, as with sweet wine: and all flesh shall know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

Isaiah 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

Isaiah 60:9 Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.

Isaiah 60:14 The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee; and all they that despised thee shall bow themselves down at the soles of thy feet; and they shall call thee, The city of the LORD, The Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 60:16 Thou shalt also suck the milk of the Gentiles, and shalt suck the breast of kings: and thou shalt know that I the LORD am thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

Jeremiah 50:29 Call together the archers against Babylon: all ye that bend the bow, camp against it round about; let none thereof escape: recompense her according to her work; according to all that she hath done, do unto her: for she hath been proud against the LORD, against the Holy One of Israel.

Jeremiah 51:5 For Israel hath not been forsaken, nor Judah of his God, of the LORD of hosts; though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel.

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

Dan 4:13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

Dan 4:23 And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Malachi 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? ]

 

You make some good points.

I see you're quoting out alot of Isaiah. So he's concidered valid for you . Than this may interest you :

Isaiah 53

53:1 The Sin-Bearing Messiah

Who has believed our report?And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed? 2 For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant,And as a root out of dry ground.He has no form or comeliness;And when we see Him,There is no beauty that we should desire Him. 3 He is despised and rejected by men,A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief.And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him;He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
4 Surely He has borne our griefs And carried our sorrows;Yet we esteemed Him stricken,Smitten by God, and afflicted. 5 But He was wounded for our transgressions,He was bruised for our iniquities;The chastisement for our peace was upon Him,And by His stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray;We have turned, every one, to his own way;And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and He was afflicted,Yet He opened not His mouth;He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,So He opened not His mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment,And who will declare His generation?For He was cut off from the land of the living;For the transgressions of My people He was stricken. 9 And they made His grave with the wicked — But with the rich at His death,Because He had done no violence,Nor was any deceit in His mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him;He has put Him to grief.When You make His soul an offering for sin,He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,And the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand. 11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,For He shall bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,Because He poured out His soul unto death,And He was numbered with the transgressors,And He bore the sin of many,And made intercession for the transgressors.

And I never said there were any other gods...

 

http://www.jdstone.org/cr/files/polemicsthesufferingservant.html



REFUTATION
Following are 12 questions to put to those who insist that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus:

1) When was Jesus sick?

In Isaiah 53.3, it reads in Hebrew, “Ish machavot,” which refers to a man who is habitually or permanently sick. The New Testament portrays Jesus as one who is without spot or blemish; therefore, he must have been a healthy man. The only pain he bore was his crucifixion, which lasted several hours and was made lighter by the knowledge that his resurrection would take place three days later.

2) When was Jesus a leper?

Verse 4 reads: “He was “nagua,” meaning “stricken.” Yet, whenever the word nagua is used in the Hebrew Bible, it always refers to one who is stricken with leprosy, as seen in 2 Kings 15.5; Leviticus 13.3, 9, 20.

3) When was Jesus without form or comeliness and undesired, so that everyone despised and rejected him? (v. 3)

On the contrary ― the gospels insist that Jesus was greatly admired by large segments from every level of society. It is said: “He began teaching in the synagogues and was glorified by all.” (Luke 4.14―15); “and the news about him went out into all Syria” (Matt. 4.24); “and as his fame grew, a great crowd came together with those that went with him from various cities” (Luke 8.4); “and great crowds followed him from Galilee, Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from the other side of the Jordan” (Matt. 4.25).

Can such a person be described as being “despised and rejected of men” or one from whom “men hid their faces and esteemed him not”? If the fundamentalist replies by saying that Jesus was despised and rejected by those men who ordered his crucifixion, we point out the difference between the words “anashim,” the “rulers” and “ishim,” the “common people”. In verse 2 in the Hebrew Bible, it clearly states that “he was despised and rejected by the ishim, the general populace.” Yet, according to the gospels, “As he went to be crucified, large crowds wept for him.” (Luke 23.27)

4) Why wasn’t Jesus humble? (v. 7)

The gospel records haughty words coming from his lips. For example, “Bring those who would not have me rule over them and slay them before my face” (Luke 19.27); “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life” (John 6.47); “He that has seen me hath seen the Father” (John 14.9).

All these verses and many more, especially in John’s gospel, show that Jesus was not a humble man but one who thought very highly of himself.

5) Why didn’t Jesus remain silent, as the servant of this chapter was supposed to?

V. 7: “He was oppressed but he humbled himself and opened not his mouth: as a lamb which is brought to the slaughter and as a sheep before his shearers is dumb, so he did not open his mouth.”

However, in the gospel accounts of the trial and crucifixion, Jesus says a number of things:

John 18.19―23: “The high priest then asked Jesus of his disciples and of his doctrine. Jesus answered him: ‘I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue and in the Temple, whither the Jews always resort and in secret have I said nothing. Why asketh thou me? Ask them who heard me what I said unto them; behold, they know what I said.’ and when he had thus spoken, one of the officers which stood by struck Jesus with the palm of his hand, saying, ‘Answereth thou the high priest so?’ Jesus answered him, ‘If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil but if well, why smitest thou me?’“

Luke 23.3: “and Pilate asked him, saying, ‘Art thou the king of the Jews?’ and he answered him and said, ‘Thou sayest it.’“

John 18.33―37: “Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again and called Jesus and said unto him, ‘Art thou the king of the Jews?’ Jesus answered him, ‘Sayest thou this thing of thyself or did others tell thee of me?’ Pilate answered, ‘Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me. What hast thou done?’ Jesus answered, ‘My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight that I should not be delivered to the Jews ― but now is my kingdom not from hence.’ Pilate therefore said unto him, ‘Art thou a king then?’ Jesus answered, ‘Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Everyone that is of the truth heareth my voice.’“

Matt. 26.63: “and the high priest answered and said unto him, ‘I adjure thee by the living God that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the son of God.’ Jesus said unto him, ‘Thou hast said it: Nevertheless, I say unto you, hereafter shall ye see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming in the clouds of heaven.’“

He also said, ‘Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me but weep for yourselves’, etc. (Luke 23.28) and besides these, there were a number of well―known sayings on the cross.

All these scriptures clearly show that whilst being questioned about his messianic pretensions, far from being humble and silent, as Isaiah describes the servant in verse 7, Jesus said much. We find that the encounter between the high priest, the elders and Jesus is highlighted by a vigorous verbal exchange. Also with Pilate, Jesus is depicted as skillfully defending himself.

In his last moments, he railed in the face of the Holy God: “My God, my God, why hast Thou forsaken me?” Besides this, there is the implicit blasphemy of John 19.11. Jesus answered, “Thou couldest have no power at all against me except it were given thee from above: therefore, He that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.” Thus God, the “power from above”, must have sinned.

6) Why did Jesus use violence and speak violence when verse 9 states: “This servant had done no violence”?

We read in the New Testament how Jesus, whip in hand, overturned tables in the Temple (John 2.15). He caused the death of a herd of swine (Mark 5.12―13). He cursed a poor fig tree because it did not bear figs out of season (Matt. 21.19―20) and he used verbal violence (Luke 19.27). He said, “Think not that I come to send peace but a sword.” (Matthew 10.34)

7) Why did Jesus deceive people?

Verse 9 says that deceit was not found in his mouth. It is clear that Jesus was a false prophet. He deceived his disciples into believing he would return in their lifetime:

“Many standing here shall not taste of death until they have seen the Kingdom of God come with power.” (Mark 9.1); “I come quickly and my reward is with me.” (Rev. 22.7, 12, 20)

He promised a hundredfold in this life to all who left everything to follow him (Mark 10.28―29) (Imagine a hundred houses, a hundred fields, a hundred wives, etc...) Yet, those who had left all to follow him died in poverty.

8) Why was Jesus not buried with the wicked, as according to verse 9?

The gospels state that Jesus was buried in the tomb of a righteous man, who was one of his disciples (Matt. 27.57―60).

Are we to presume this man was a wicked disciple?

9) Why were there no rich people crucified with him?

Verse 9 says that “his death was with the rich” but the gospels say that he died between two thieves (Mark 15.27).

Maybe they were rich thieves?

10) When did Jesus have children?

Verse 10 says: “He shall see his offspring (zerah).”

When God promised Avraham “zerah”, along came Yitzhak, a real, physical offspring, as the Hebrew word “zerah” implies ― but where was Jesus’s offspring? Are we to assume that he had illegitimate children?

11) When were Jesus’s days lengthened?

Why did he die so young? Verse 10 says: “That is days shall be lengthened.”

12) If Jesus is God, as the missionaries claim, then how can one who is eternal have his days prolonged?

Another objection to the fundamentalists’ claim that Isaiah 53 refers to Jesus is that they have been misled by the compilers of their Christian bibles. It is necessary to point out that the passage begins not with Isaiah 53, v. 1 ― but v. 13 of the previous chapter. In Hebrew, the scripture portions are divided by stumas. A space of several letters can be found at the closing of a passage before the next passage begins. This can only be seen in a Hebrew Bible. A Torah scribe has strictly to follow these rules.

By reading the passage in its entirety, we learn that God is speaking to His servant and that the servant shall prosper and be exalted and be very high. (Isaiah 52.13)

The next thing we find is the name of the servant. To do that, we need only refer to several verses also found in the Book of Isaiah, such as Isaiah 41.8, Isaiah 44.1―2 and Isaiah 45.4, which all state that the name of the servant is Israel ― but was Israel “nagua” ― stricken with leprosy?

In the New International Commentary of the Old Testament, Edward J. Young, Professor of the Old Testament at the Westminster Theological Seminary in Philadelphia, elaborates: “Nagua (stricken) has been interpreted by many to refer to smiting with leprosy. In 2 Kings 15.5, we read: ‘and the Lord afflicted the king and he became leprous’.” Duhm also maintained that the servant was a leper, who died from the disease. Peter R. Ackroyd, Professor of Old Testament Studies at the University of London, in his study of Isaiah 53, found in the Interpreters’ One―Volume Commentary on the Bible, notes that “‘stricken’ is an appropriate word for continuing the leprosy metaphor” found in this chapter. He comments that “a man involved in pain and humiliation by sickness, hiding his face from us; we despised him and did not esteem him” are words found in the chapter and, he says, “it is difficult to imagine a more appropriate way to suggest the language to (describe) such a disease.”

If the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is Israel, how then is it possible for this servant to be described as being a leper? The link is clear and plainly stated in Isaiah 1.1, where we read: “The vision of Isaiah... the days of Uzziah... Isaiah was contemporary with King Uzziah and lived through to the time of the king’s death. Isaiah was well acquainted with Uzziah’s experience (chap. 6.1)

King Uzziah, although he was a good king towards his people during his long reign of 52 years, failed in his first duty under God by allowing the worship of strange gods within the land. Added to this fault, he ambitiously took it upon himself to enter the Temple and, assuming the priestly office, went on to burn the sacred incense before the Holy One of Israel. For this intrusion into holy orders, he was smitten of God with the dreaded disease of leprosy and so remained a leper, isolated from his people unto the day of his death. (2 Kings 15.5)

It seems the lesson Isaiah is putting before the people is: “Here is your leprous king, who is in type suffering under God’s Hand for you, the backsliding servant nation of Israel.” (Isaiah 53.6)

A commentary in the light of this historical background would point to such verses as 53.2: “He shot up as a sapling.” Due to his father’s death in battle, Uzziah had to take the throne at the early age of 16 years. Again, in 53.8: “He was taken away.” Due to his affliction as a leper, he was taken away from the royal palace, his court and people, to spend his life in a house of isolation unto the day of his death. “He was cut off out of the land of the living.” “For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due.” ― and so, the comparisons between the experience of the historical King Uzziah are so numerous that one can conclude that Isaiah is describing here this king and not an illusory suffering savior on a cross.

Israel is portrayed as a suffering servant on account of its anointed leader being stricken with leprosy. Israel, like the leper, is a suffering servant of God. Both have suffered humiliation at the hands of their fellowmen ― the leper because of his unsightly appearance and Israel, through its defeat at the hands of the Babylonians.

The gist of the message is that Israel, like the leper, has suffered but nevertheless will retain its identity in the form of the exiled Jewish People and that they will prosper in this form. The Jewish People in fact continued to grow and prosper until the 4th century CE (AD), when Christianity became the sole state religion of the Roman world and the forcible suppression of non–Christian religions began.

 

This verse should explain it:

Through His stripes, we are healed.

Basicly, when he was on the cross, He took all our sickness upon Himself.

Ditto my previous sentence.

Yes, that's true, but He was, on the same time, despised:

John 15:18-25

"If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you,'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also. 21 But all these things they will do to you for My name's sake, because they do not know Him who sent Me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 He who hates Me hates My Father also. 24 If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin; but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father. 25 But this happened that the word might be fulfilled which is written in their law, 'They hated Me without a cause.'
NKJV

And yes, we Christians have a tough time with the society. Since they concider Christianity to be 'uncool' ( you do too, because you're Jews. ).

Besides, He was severely rejected by the Jewish people. When He was standing next to pontious pilot all the Jewish people said : Crucify Him, crucidy Him!!
That's rejection, they didn't like Him, they despised Him.

He was also rejected by His Father:

Mark 15:34-37
34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"

35 Some of those who stood by, when they heard that, said, "Look, He is calling for Elijah!" 36 Then someone ran and filled a sponge full of sour wine, put it on a reed, and offered it to Him to drink, saying, "Let Him alone; let us see if Elijah will come to take Him down."

37 And Jesus cried out with a loud voice, and breathed His last.
NKJV

He was really humble, but G-d on the same time.(sorry for that)
He really disliked pride. And He never struck back. That's a reason why Christians basicly 'kill'
themselves ( not lit.) not to be prideful.

I don't see how those verses make Him not humble, if He didn't say who He was, He'da be lying...

I believed it referred to Him not cursing anyone. And He didn't talk when He was ' led to the slaughter'... but that's me. There are probably other interpretations.
Also, when they beat Him up, He never opened His mouth.

Wouldn't you have done the same if you loved G-d as much as He did? Jesus had zeal for G-d's house. it's even prophecied:

Psalms 69:9
9 Because zeal for Your house has eaten me up,
And the reproaches of those who reproach You have fallen on me.
NKJV

The swine thing wasn't necessarily violance, it was more like sacrifice. The sword thing was a parabble! I can't believe the guy took it Literally...


And the fig tree was put as an example:
The fig tree looked pleasing to the eye, and healthy, ( People claiming that they're Christians ), but when He looked, there were no fruits ( These people, claim they're Christians, but they truely aren't. They don't follow a word in the Bible)

Oh, so now all of a suddon you care what Revelation says, no?

I don't see that as deception. And Jesus was refering to heaven I believe, not the world.

He was buried in his place, not with him.

It doesn't necessarily mean it had to be wealth. It could have been spiritual.
So one could interpret " Died With ( along with, probably another way to say 'as'), the rich ( He was a rich man at heart, he died because He loved you enough to lay His life down.)

Also, He was buried in a rich man's tomb.

10) When did Jesus have children?

What? ;
Almost sounds like the Da Vinci code.

No, he didn't have Children. Sure this couldn't imply spiritual? ( Come to think of it, was Adam G-d's physical offspring? If so, since we all came from Adam and Eve, and since Jesus was G-d in the flesh, it could mean physical....)

1

I never thought of that verse. But it probably referred to the fact that He resurected, and walked around on Earth, AFTER His Earthly death.

 

[font=&quot]
[/font]
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[font=&quot]
JESUS, LAMB OR GOAT?[/font]
​

[font=&quot]Hugh Fogelman[/font]
​

[font=&quot] [/font]
​

[font=&quot] [/font]

[font=&quot]Christians maintain Jesus was the Passover Lamb, a “HUMAN” sacrifice for the sins of all. But what does God say about this? Two points must be addressed.[/font]

[font=&quot]ONE: [/font][font=&quot]Christians claim Jesus was a sacrifice for the sins of all, meaning all people for all sins for all times. Chapter 4 of Leviticus lists offerings that are “required” to atone for sins, in contrast to other offerings. These “sin” offerings cannot atone for sins that were committed INTENTIONALLY. No offerings is sufficient to remove the stain of such sinfulness; that can be done only through repentance and a change of the attitudes that made it possible for the transgressor to flout God’s will. [/font]

[font=&quot]That is right; no sacrifice can be offered or accepted by one who sins intentionally. Since the Christian sacrifice aka Jesus, is supposed to be the one great sacrifice for the sins of all," then it cannot be “for all sinners, and all sins, for all time.” In other words, sin-offerings were never meant for ALL.[/font]

[font=&quot]On the other hand, Sin-offerings are needed to atone for deeds that were committed “INADVERTENTLY,” as a result of carelessness, accident and without intent, (Leviticus 4:2 and Leviticus 4:22).[/font]

[font=&quot]TWO: [/font][font=&quot]Leviticus 4:21: And he shall carry forth the bullock without the camp, and burn him as he burned the first bullock: is a sin offering for the congregation. "Bullock"? I thought we were meant to believe that Jesus was a lamb?

Leviticus 4:23: “Or if his sin, wherein he hath sinned, come to his knowledge; he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a male without blemish” "Jesus, a Kid of the goats"? [/font]

[font=&quot]And all these years Christians were taught that Jesus was a lamb?

Leviticus 4:27-28: And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.

A "kid of the goats, a female without blemish?" Were not Christians taught that Jesus was to be a sacrificial lamb? Was not Jesus a male? So, the more we examine this sacrificial lamb thing, it just shows that the Christian sacrifice was not a real sacrifice for the common people after all. But wait, it seems one can bring a lamb, after all.

Leviticus 4:32: And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish. The key word here is “without.” The Christian Bible clearly says Jesus was whipped bloody, blood ran down his forehead from the Crown of Thorns and he was circumcised. These alone would disqualify him, for he was NOT without blemish. Oops, I about forgot, Jesus was not a female either―just one more little detail that slips through Christian minds.

Leviticus 4:12: Even the whole bullock shall he carry forth without the camp unto a clean place, where the ashes are poured out, and burn him on the wood with fire: where the ashes are poured out shall he be burnt. [/font]

[font=&quot]Leviticus 4:18 And he shall put some of the blood upon the horns of the altar which is before the Lord, that is in the tabernacle of the congregation, and shall pour out all the blood at the bottom of the altar of the burnt offering, which is at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

When was the "sacrifice" of Jesus burnt? How can Jesus be a "perfect" sacrifice, if his death does not conform to God's Laws concerning sacrifice? Only if you change the rules set forth by God. Now, who would change the unmitigated gall to G-d’s rules? Do you have the authority to change G-d’s laws, rules and/or procedures? Does your preacher have this authority? Or perhaps Paul? In one word, NO![/font]

[font=&quot]Leviticus 4:13-14 And if the whole congregation of Israel sin through ignorance, and the thing be hid from the eyes of the assembly, and they have done somewhat against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which should not be done, and are guilty; When the sin, which they have sinned against it, is known, then the congregation shall offer a young bullock for the sin, and bring him before the tabernacle of the congregation.

"Bullock"? I thought we were meant to believe that Jesus was a lamb? How is Jesus supposed to be a sacrifice for sin, as according to Leviticus Chapter 4, if these sacrifices all speak of "unintentional sins?"

Leviticus 4:35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the Lord: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Jesus, unless the rules had been changed, was not an acceptable sacrifice! One small detail that Christians apparently forget, the fact that God does not accept human blood sacrifices. But, overlooking that “small” detail, Christians should at least now realize that Jesus was not:[/font]

[font=&quot]perfect, as his flesh was torn;[/font]

[font=&quot]a bullock;[/font]

[font=&quot]a kid of the goats,[/font]

[font=&quot]a female lamb; and [/font]

[font=&quot]burnt on the altar. [/font]

[font=&quot]Even if Jesus had conformed to these criteria, he could not have been a sacrifice for “intentional” sins. [/font]

[font=&quot]The only place in the Christian Bible that makes the claim that Jesus took away the sin of the world is found in John 1:29. Here, John the Baptist, upon seeing Jesus, makes this claim; “Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world!” [/font]

[font=&quot]Christians took those two phases and made them world renowned: [/font]

[font=&quot](1) Lamb of God; and [/font]

[font=&quot](2) taketh away the sin of the world. [/font]

[font=&quot]Anyone who knows Torah would certainly know that associating lamb to sin must follow the rules established by God. [/font]

[font=&quot]For the “Outer chatas/sin offerings,” for personal sin/variable chatas the lamb MUST be female. For Nazir Tahor and Metzora, the lamb MUST also be female. [/font]

[font=&quot]For burnt offerings (Olah) the male lambs are used. HOWEVER, there is no mentioned of any sin and the male offerings once died MUST be burnt. [/font]

[font=&quot]For guilt offerings (asham) the male lamb was used.[/font]

[font=&quot]For peace offerings (shelamim) the male lamb was used [/font]

[font=&quot]For Pesach (Passover) the male lamb WITHOUT blemish was used. Two important rules must be followed: (1) the lamb MUST be without blemish (2) there is no association of any sin involved. [/font]

[font=&quot]For Yom Kippur, the male goat (kid) was indeed used to take away our sins.[/font]

[font=&quot]Answer these questions for yourself![/font]

[font=&quot]Which “offerings” would you apply to Jesus? [/font]

[font=&quot]Was Jesus a symbol of a lamb or a goat? [/font]

[font=&quot]These are very important questions! Your life may very well ride on your answers. Answer honestly, answer accurately and then you will be right.[/font][font=&quot] [/font]

[font=&quot]Truth is in Torah, not in the Christian bible. [/font]

[font=&quot] [/font]

© 2001-2004 Christianity Revealed.
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The content on this page is produced by Christianity Revealed, and is copyrighted by the author, publisher and/or Christianity Revealed.
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If you enjoyed this article, we encourage you to distribute it further, provided that you comply with our copyright policy.


http://jdstone.org/cr/files/jesuslamborgoat_2.html

 

The truth lies in neither one of those books Shepardic.

Just because the book of your god, and the other
gods of your past, still survived is testement only
to the fact that it was written down.

It doesnt make it the truth, only a well written
book of a tribal god who convienced a people
to be his children.

You have to claim all of these things in your gods
name, and try to prove them. All these things he
proclaimed. My gods proclaimed none of these things.

Does saying your cool make you cool? nope, being cool
goes without saying.

Its like that, whoever proclaims it most usually isnt it.

 

But if youre Gods creation, and He knew you before you were born etc. then he placed you in those surroundings. He planned for you to be born there.

 

what are you talking about heron. I am refuting the lies of a missionary who claims Judaism is some kind of "looking foward to Jesus" religion and twisting up and taking the jewish bible out of context and since you a neo pagan based on the website in your signature you would do the same thing against christians who think you are following satan saying neopaganisn and wicca is satanism

 

Witchcraft and satanism are two completely different things.

There are so many scripture passages reflecting Jesus, so many prophecies he fulfilled...listing them would take ages. And I'm not going to deal with you, because I'm not too much into arguing...unless you'd actually take in account some of the things that I tell you, or even listen to some of the stuff. *sigh* it's just like Moses said...

Nevertheless, I do love you! I'll be praying for you, and ask Yahweh to teach you about His New Covenant, which allowes you to have a personal relationship with Him, and be His son.
And I don't want you to go to sheol either...it's not a very pretty place.

love ya'!

 

Shepard, maybe i was mistaken in my interpretation of what you meant.
Appologies. I must have been in a mood.

I am neither wiccan nor "neopagan", i am not the first title,
and despise the second.

I still dont get your pagan/satanist and jewish/christian analogy.

Christian is based on Judaism, Satanism is based on Christianity,
and paganism predates them all.

Before Moses, and a little after, the Jews themselves were as pagan as my ancestors.

 

I think what he's saying is that you and he both have to fend off Christians who think your religion is somehow invalid or wrong. The Judaism that worries about such things sees a distinction between modern day paganism and ancient paganism so it's not an issue whether or not someone practices it. It's just a religion like any other. But Christianity often doesn't have such clear guidelines for defining things, and so it will use the bible to label modern day paganism as wrong, and sometimes will also confuse it with satanism.

 

Thanks for that dauer. I appreciate it.

But I didnt know that Christians were that way
towards Judaism, as to it being wrong.

I know they seem to think that they are
gods new favorite, and that Jews missed
their messiah, but I didnt know to what
extent.

Well, he is right, we both have defending to do.

 

I think it is so hilariously funny for modern Christians to tell Jews "what's what" about their Deity, their Holy Book and their history!!

These johnny-come-lately "apologists" (usually some girl under 18 or some male under 30) don't have a fucking clue about Jews, their history, their culture, or their religion and are just quoting what some televangelist or Christian feel-good author has spouted. The arrogance is NAUSEATING.

What makes it even funnier is that it is ridiculous. I think I'll invent some off-shoot sect of Islam (like Christianity is to Judaism) and begin to tell Muslims what their history REALLY is, what the Koran REALLY means, etc. And maybe in a few hundred years from now, it'll be one of the largest religions in the world. Especially if I use my "psychic powers" and then get myself martyred and have a few propagandists invent some "I saw him rise from the grave, walk through a wall and buy a pack of smokes at the 7-11" story... HA HA HA....

 

LOL well said libertine.

I know what you mean about Christians and their "what they know"

I had fun in my World Religions class the other night.
We are on Christianity right now. Watched a video about
Catholic and Eastern Orthodox. It covered the Christian
persicution of Jews, and even covered the Holocost as
such. The teacher, a Baptist minister made quick to say
that Christians had nothing to do with that. BUT anyway,
he started talking about how Christians say that Muslims
worship a different god then they do.

SO, i said "If Muslims worship a different god than Christians,
and that god is El, god of Abraham, then by christians theological
dogma, they worship a false god right? And if that is true, then
the first half of the OT is false as well correct?"

He stumbled and stammered for a second, and said that
christians just dont understand, they think Muslims worship
mohammed, who was just a prophet.

SO i say "So since Christians worship their prophet, they
assume that Muslims do the same?"

He was forced to say yes.

Then I got him on "Abrahams Bosom" where he said that "believers"
go, so i asked him if that is the same as the "heaven" that the war
was in, where El is, he said he couldnt answer it. SO i asked if
believers only go to Abrahams Bosom, then it is only the Hebrew
people that go there. SO i asked where do the others go?

My answer is to their own gods house, his answer was "I dunno"

 

The most difficult aspect of this right now is Jews for Jesus. Because these are really baptists. Could you imagine a bunch of baptists doing pagan rituals and saying, "You're really not a complete pagan. If you give up your gods and get baptized and just pray to Jesus, then you can do it the way you're used to and that way you'll be complete." It's so offensive and demeaning. They target Jews intentionally for conversion, especially in ways a cult would operate, like working on college campuses, looking for lonely people, disconnected people. For them, a Jew is like the finest cut of meat when it comes to attaining a convert. I think it has to do with a prophecy about the second coming.