"God" and pain

What the hell is up with "God" and pain? How come when I state I don't believe in any gods, these people who try to convert me usually end up saying things like, "Well, god will get your attention one day!", "Maybe you haven't suffered enough", "God will test you", "Hell may be your home", "God could take your child, and then you'd see", "God could allow Satan to wreck your life", etc. etc...ad nauseum!!

Hey, if "God" wants my fucking attention why doesn't he send me $10,000?? That would get my fucking attention! Why doesn't he allow me to go through a whole year with zero problems? Hmmm...I'd be thinking hard about "God" then maybe. How about give me a week-long euphoric high, fully-functional ? How about giving me the ability to leap over buildings in a single bound? Or part the seas...hell, how about just a creek?

Why? Because "God" doesn't exist and Godheads can only use fear and guilt to push their religion. Don't threaten me...give me reason to see a "God of Love"...

 

*shrugs* It seems that some people witness searching to others for the pleasure of "being right". Not because they care anything about you... Which actually reminds me of a thread I want to start... But anyway.

The above comments are kind of ignorant. The best witness a Christian has is through their example of loving kindness, and comments like the above completely obliterate any credibility the person that says them may have.

I think that we probably wouldn't give Him the credit, even if things like this were granted to us... Besides, the above things, like money and magical powers can be used to abuse/victimize/oppress others. They don't have spiritual value for growth, which is the point of being a Christian... Well, at least you would hope.

What about those televangelists who have lots of money, you might ask? I don't believe that they're necessarily doing G-d's will. They're ripping people off by offering them salvation in a bottle of tap water that they'll sell you for the low low price of $59.99 (which can be paid in 3 easy installments of $19.99, of course).

Exactly. You've got the whole point right there in a nutshell. If people aren't witnessing with love, they should just shut the hell up and go home to watch TBN, because that's about the only spiritual work people like that are fit for.

 

Good point. I'll take that.

Yeah, I'd have to have more proof, yes. But, say for instance that I went a whole year with no problems and heard a voice call to me and tell me this is "God" or approached by the angel Gabriel or something...

They are actually pretty crafty assholes.

Agreed.

 

Fear and uncertainty is a good way for the religious meme to propegate itself. They prey on your fears because they know it works.

While people may not fear death itself, people still instinctually desire to stay alive. Which is why the christian message is so powerful, even in a modern world when some of us wonder what the hell these people are thinking.

I just love those little tracts (those little christiany pamphlets, for those unfamiliar with the term) that have been stuck in my door or on my winshield occasionally. You know the ones, they have flames all over them, holding little comic strips inside where the character ends up boo-hooing in hell. The characters are sometimes children, sometimes adults. They are like little threats with crosses on them. "You're gonna burn in hell!" They make me laugh.

Even if I did believe in a god and want to live my life in his service, it would never be a god that would send his own creations to suffer eternal torment. Not to mention a god that created these people in the first place knowing how many of us he would cast into hell. I have no respect for such a being. I would never bow down to such a cruel thing.

 

Libertine, you lovable soul you.
Remember Job?
He loved God. God loved Him. He had alot going for him. Satan wanted to test Job's faith and GOd allowed it. job lost everything..his family, his animals, his belongings, and finally his health. He laid under a tree covered in boils. His friends told him to curse God and die. Yet Job knew God's heart and trusted in His goodness and faithfulness. God restored Job, and he became way more blessed than he was before. He had the patience to endure ANYTHING that God had in store for him. The Patience of Job. Wisdom in that story for all of us. Who of us would have held on so long? i'm sure i dont have patience like that.

My point? If God allowed all these unforunate events to happen to one of His beloved believers, yet Faith and Hope prevailed, How would blessing an unbeliever with riches or powers really get his attention and cause him to turn to God? Would that really make them grateful for once? Would they really give the GLory back to the Giver?

Mark 8:11-13
The Pharisees came and began to question Jesus. To test him, they asked him for a sign from heaven. [12] He sighed deeply and said, "Why does this generation ask for a miraculous sign? I tell you the truth, no sign will be given to it." [13] Then he left them, got back into the boat and crossed to the other side.

even after Jesus fed the five thousand with 2 loaves of bread and 2 fish, people still doubted Him. Even a sign as blatantly in your face is not guaranteed to convince you. GOd cannot feed your fleshly desires, that's not the kind of God He is, nor does He operate that way. He is interested in your heart, your love for others.

 

If I knew it was a "God", damn straight I'd be grateful and turn toward "Him". So, that's just a subjective assumption based on the individual. I'd much rather embrace a "God" of fortunate events than one always having to use fear, guilt and pain to get me to pay attention.

And I have great love for others, but it comes from my brain (through my emotions), not my heart--it's just a blood-pumper.

 

LOL! Me too... The problem is, I'm a bad child. Selfish. Undisciplined. Careless. Callous. Insensitive. And my G-d, like the good parent He is, isn't just gonna give me stuff I want, and allow me to become a spoiled brat. He has to discipline me.

Through some of my hardest times has come my most significant spiritual growth... Whether I like to admit it or not, those are the events that have shaped who I am... Had anything at all happened differently, I might not feel the way I do or think the way I think. When it's put out there like that, it's a scary thought to me.

Have you ever met a Christian brat that G-d has spoiled? Hasn't had a hardship in a long time... Hasn't questioned his faith in years... If you haven't, I hope you never do, because they're the worst. They take their blessings for granted and laugh it up while watching you struggle.

They're also the ones who are completely unable to cope when this little thing called "life" happens...

 

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Well, think about it, Fuzzy. Was He lying? Or is there a division between Christians and people who aren't? Jesus is the Prince of Peace because of His peaceful example that Christians are supposed to strive for. Not because He would bring peace. We still have free will, and we can still choose war, if we like.

Miseo is also translated as "to love less" by extension (source: Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Greek #3404). The point is, we are supposed to love G-d above all else, and serve Him before we serve ourselves and our families. But in serving Him, it strengthens us so that we can also serve better in those areas of our life too. It's all about discipline.

 

Pain is good. You know when you are stretching too far and are gonna hurt your muscles? It's a fucking warning that what 'you' are doing could damage 'your' body, stop wanting to do it.

True. It's a warning. My parents used to warn me not to touch the stove, "it's hot matt, don't touch it". Well, I touched it anyway (I was 3) and I didn't touch it again. I did learn there are some boundaries not to cross.

Yup. Until I touched the hot stove, I didn't listen. Learned my lesson though.

It already is if you don't know God. Of course, if you don't realise how good life could be, you would never realise how shitty your life is.

Give you something that would take your attention off of God? Hmm, good idea. Maybe I should consult you for help with all of my decisions.

Because that would not teach you about God. God controls everything. If you think that you have control over anything, you do not know God. Why would God do anything that convinces you that you have greater control over reality? My ball sweat smells funny.

See, Godheads (real Godheads, not some half hearted pussy), know that they do not control their own 'actions'. So if they give you a message of fear and guilt, it is because God has caused it, not because of some personal agenda of theirs.

See, you already stand in God's presence. God controls everything around and in you. God is being very gentle in the way God grows your soul. So gentle and so compassionate, that you think the fact that God fulfills most of the desires that God has created within you means that you have willed them to be done. You have this feeling of authority over actions because God fulfills more desires that God arises within you than God does not fulfill.

To be weaned of your ego, your childish thought of your own power, God will cause more desires to arise within you and fulfill less, until the point that your ego breaks and you desire to know the reason why. After all, God is already intentionally doing everything that you like, you just don't know it. The thing is, you are gonna be in spiritual pain when God pulls you off the tit to wean your ego.

 

YOU ARE ON THE FUCKING TIT OF HUMAN EGO KHARAKOV. AND GOD IS THE NOURISHING MILK OF FALSE HOPE.

Fatalism is childish. Why are you posting? I am destined to go to Hell, it is futile for you to try and convince anyone of anything, ever. What IS, is the will of God and cannot be changed.

FATALISM IS CHILDISH, not to mention lazy.

 

Boobs rock. Mmmmhh.. boobies.. Anyway, I started spelling my name kh-r-k-v because people spell God without vowels.

This is what God does with me. I enjoy it as much as I enjoy being right.

It all sinks in, whether or not you notice.

If you haven't noticed, the will of God is an active moving thing. There is a reason that God bitches about false idols made of 'unliving material' that draw attention away from the living God. Living... living.. Living... and it has nothing to do with a sense of humor.

Not lazy. I like the exertion that God does to me.

Childish? It is certainly more mature than some kid who thinks they are in charge because their parent is nice to them and holds them when they want attention.

 

Dude, I love you, of course you can. The question I have is who gets the mouth and who get's the ass?

 

No one, God banned anal, remember?
Not limited to the past few posts-- Kharakov you are very hypocritical.

 

Shit, I forgot. What about when you get drunk and you end up in the wrong hole of some face down chick?

I certainly would not be a hypocrit to entertain children.

 

I guess its alright if you're married... To tell you the truth I'm not really sure about the rules.

At least you go straight to the age issue when you feel threatened...

 

I consider everyone but God to be a child. And I don't like to have to explain jokes. Don't question authority!

 

wow! i didnt know you had it in you!!!!!!!!!! especially the bold part....that wraps up what i was trying to explain, lol

 

Nice sophistry and verbal gymnastics, Kharakov.

Proves nothing.

The sad fact is that in order to debate Christians now, you have to find out

A) What Brand of Christianity they are
B) Which Version of God they use
C) How they "interpret" the Bible

So, a whole lot of work goes into just defining THEM, first.

I realize what you are getting at (I think) and it's not mainline Christianity, obviously, but some metaphoric, mystical neuvo-Christianity, which is, essentially, just another "brand" to argue about.

So, you are obviously a Determinist to the utmost degree. This is quite interesting. I could almost embrace that, but one thing stands in my way-- the concept of "God".

So, tell me what is "God" (in your 'interpretation')?

 

Why thank you. One trys.

The proof is in the pudding. Hearsay is not sufficient evidence...

Yeah. I don't even call myself a christian, although I am.

True.

You know, when I was an atheist, before I saw proof of God, I was into hard line natural determinism. It just doesn't make sense to be the product of something (even if it is nature) and not have your actions determined by it. Free will is a stupid belief, whether or not you think it comes from God or from nature. But it can be entertaining... which is why suspension of disbelief is a kick ass gift from God- makes things interesting.

I know. I was there once too. Switched from natural determinism to supernatural determinism because of the evidence I saw. Anyway, once you begin to percieve the evidence, you will think it kicks ass. I mean, life is a whole lot more than a box of chocolates.

Everything. Not in the pantheistic sense of simple natural laws being God, but in the sense of controling everything with divine intent. God surrounds all things and souls inside and out. God just happens to be gentle enough that souls don't really notice because God does so much of that which they desire within the body that God has placed them in... hence the lesson of death or disease. You don't control your own body, but God doesn't want you to feel too confined, so moves in response to your desires (which God created anyway). Certain ideas take a while to sink in- like the fact that you can have the sensation of freedom within God while God controls everything.

God nurtures your feeling of freedom- of not being confined, at the same time as God sets limits to let you know that God is there. Takes a certain amount of experience of God's actions (they all sink in) before someone can be comfortable with the experience of knowing God.

Me, I was called at a different age then you. I was about 24 and had thought about life a lot. Death, destruction, pain, suffering, all these things balanced out by the joys I had had . Why is there suffering if there is an all caring God? To teach you the limits of the freedoms that God grants you, in order to hold you back from ultimate suffering. Unfortunately, like everyone else, I needed the experience of hell (ultimate suffering) before I really understood the reason for suffering. Like I said the other day, my parents told me not to touch the stove, but God still made me touch it because I still desired to despite the warnings. Stopped touching the stove after that one time. Then again, I am pretty stupid, so I have done just about everything else that people told me not to do, but I have learned that God limits the satisfaction of our desires for our own good, so we know (or in your case, can learn) that the satisfaction comes from God.

It sucks, but you need to touch the stove before you will understand. Love you bro...

 

Very interesting philosophy, Kharakov. My only question is "where is the evidence of so-called divine intent"? Natural determinism is much more approachable than this so-called "supernatural", "transcendent" approach.

From what I've gathered, people leap into this realm when they either
A) Run out of natural answers and want more
B) Have some experience that they perceive to be more or "divine"
C) Base their lives on some authority (teacher or book)

I'm sure there may be more, but eventually it comes down to these in the long run.