Listen To Benjamin Franklin!!!!!

If your not going to listen to me, please atleast listen to Benjamin Franklin. A poll was taken among people about my age and the majority (about 80%) I think said they would be willing to give up their right to freedom of speech for "protection from terrorists".

"Those who sacrafice their liberty for saftey deserve neither liberty nor saftey" (or somthing like this)- Benjamin Franklin

It just pisses me off watching the idiots take away our rights one by one.

 

a few of my records were requested without me being notified....


the freedom of information act so rocks.....

 

"In Germany, they first came for the communists, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a communist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I didn't speak up because I
wasn't a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Catholic.
Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up."
-Martin Niemvller

 

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

What would he be saying NOW if he was alive

It is so wrong using dated [no not 'timeless'] supposedly 'poignant' quotes in the present.. they just seem so cliched imho .

 

Then why are ancient texts taught in politcal science classes around the world?

 

I think taking quotes not whole bodys of work is a bit wrong. You just hear these same quotes being parroted all the time.. It has some vague relevance [having liberty within in it].. and ?.. What was the actual context of what he was talking about [in full]. What situation was he referring too ?..

 

I think regardless of what context it was in, the statement is true and very applicable to todays situations. I guess it can get annoying to hear the same quotes over and over, but they do hold meaning even today, and will be contintued to be repeated until people actually start listening to what they say.

I mean, the Patriot Acts are bills that take away out privacy and freedom to supposably offer us safety, but is the safety worth the loss of privacy?

 

If the Patriot Act was written in stone and did not have any 'sunset clauses' ..The Bush administration had no intent in allowing certain 'provisions' to be looked at then that might be something to worry about.. i would like too know what 'liberties' are being taken away for good ?.

Too me it is a profoundly intricate political and personal conundorum to work out.. Throwing half remembered .. possibly valid [or maybe not] quotes at it is being a bit melodramatic.


'It is true that liberty is precious; so precious that it must be carefully rationed. '

 

in room 101 lived the interrogator who persuaded winston smith that everything he thought and saw and read was only as relevant as long as it existed physically - he defies winston to prove the existence of something that didn't exist in the present and to prove the validity of something of the past in respect to the present. 1984 the book by george orwell was set in england. orwell knew quite well the nature of your average brit which is why in 1948 he saw england of 1984 as one of a straightjacketed mind. england in the book is a militaristic nation at war, the population impoverished in both mind body and spirit. everyone cheers at the cinema when "the enemy" gets whats coming to them. goldstein is an everpresent menace, he is everywhere yet nowhere, plotting and causing havoc, how very convenient is goldstein, yet no one knows exactly who he is. does all this sound familiar?

it would be interesting to know who the victims are in this whole situation, who are the orchestrators and who the cheerleaders and interrogators are? just like in the book you have to know where some people are coming from and exactly what "page" they are on. i wonder if england is like this now - is the population just a plaything of the dancing bears of the media as portrayed in the book - well i really wouldn't know would i?

 

yes but you see, before hand I could control this information, I choose which sites I have cookies for, I am careful about what I sign up for and I pay attention to what I do to my information


up until patriot I had to be notified before the government went rifling through my records, now I'm not


the fact that you are so blaise shows that you have very little understanding of the power of the almighty bit.....

 

Well, since you put it that way, I'm gonna call the FBI right away and tell 'em they're free to rifle through my undies.

 

It is a book written by a fevered mind.. 60 years ago. The multitude of different 'levels' put upon on it over time ...is quite ridiculous.. room 101 was not all those things you say.. it was a room with 'your worst nighmare' so that you would talk..thats it.

I suppose i am a 'cheerleader' then.. for pitys sake..

what organisations do and what the goverment do are two different things..

Eh... they pretty much did or did not do what they wanted with your 'information' at any point..as you are pretty much meaningless [no offence] i doubt very much they have a 'file' on you . Blaise about these things [i suppose you would pigeon hole me as well]...not at all.. i am well aware of the sort of things that go on.. but reality is quite a bit more dull than all you people care for it too be.

 

how about the fourth and eighth amendments? the problem is when they introduce anti-constitutional measures like these which they say are justified by the terror attacks of september 11 and the ridiculous 'war against terrorism', such "special and temporary circumstances" end up lasting forever and the constitution is doomed. in fact, cheney has said this war will not end in our lifetime. as it is congress is meant to review and sign off on the running of the act, i think it's supposed to be every six months. so far congress hasn't met once to discuss the patriot act. congress has lost all authority and credibility now: wars cannot be declared unless approved by the congress, so in fact the war on terrorism is illegal since congress hasn't declared it but we don't see that stopping the bush administration. i think these ppl have got every right to be extremely worried about their government and its intentions: they've walked all over the congress and the constitution, so why won't they walk all over the people too?

 

rome eventually became an empire after inumerable wars that stretched decades. the senate eventually became irrelevant as power was ceded to fewer and fewer hands. once all power was ceded to one man and "imperium" the power of deciding life or death, further wars broke out as rome sought to bring outlying territories under its reign of terror. sure their were the aquaducts and roads (this is starting to sound like a scene from monty python) but they were primarily built to retain control. any "democracy" that enters into everlasting conflict usually ends up a tyranny - just ask the greeks they've written heaps about this and endured it. if you want to know the future you must look to the past.

 

The Benjamin Franklin True Patriot Act (H.R. 3171) was a bill intended to review the previously passed USA Patriot Act. The bill was referred to subcommittees where it languished without action taken before the end of the 108th United States Congress. The bill will have to be re-introduced in order to be considered again.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Franklin_True_Patriot_Act

I thought this was funny..anyhoo

Thats ridiculous James.. putting unrelated things together and making them fit a certain idea is ridiculous. This is the type of logic that puts the fear of god into people..

I am sure they have.. and i can see the 'comparative' nature of the Romans and The North Americans.. But the similarties start drifting a bit at certain points [and crand canyon gulfs in other places].. I am sure dozens of thesis have been written in favour and against

If you have read about it you must appreciate the flaws ..'and sure 'their were the aquaducts and roads' is missing out vast swathes of the positive and the negative Greek influencing Roman culture and vice versa [i don't think it was all bad ]. I wonder if Greece would like to give up its democracy ??.

 

well so it bloody should. the truth is nothng like this benign "happy valley" picture you try to paint, matthew, where all authority figures work tirelessly and conscientiously in the interests of the ordinary people and only dastardly rogues would ever doubt their propriety or intentions. i gave up that world view when i left sunday school. please, have your fantasy world by all means, just don't expect anyone else wants to live in it.

 

yes its interesting about rome and america and theres no conclusive proof that rome and america have parallels - i mean the president as far as i'm aware has never said, we are the new rome! may i lead your attention to these small parallels i've done some cursory research on

to explain: the fasces (or rods/bundles of wooden rods around an axe ) were the symbol of rome. america likes using them too!

"(1916-1945) mercury dimes us
The composition of the coin is standard for fractional currency of the time, .900 silver and .100 copper. The fasces was a symbol of Roman magistracy and eventually, imperialism. the fasces were on the coin

At the Lincoln Memorial, Lincoln's seat bears the fasces on the fronts of its arms

The fasces appears on the state seal of Colorado

Two fasces appear on either side of the Flag of the United States in the United States House of Representatives, representing the power of the lower house and the country.

On the seal of the New York City borough of Brooklyn, a figure carries a fasces; the seal appears on the borough flag.

2 large crossed FASCES compose the insignia of the National Guard


FASCES phalluses, along with Yoni-wreaths, encircle the base of the statue atop the U.S. Capitol and are found in other U.S. "high" places.

FASCES appeared on the U.S. coin, "Battle of Gettysburg" Half Dollar. In 1936, some 26,928 were minted. The reverse displays two shields separated by a doubleblade fasces. Obverse portrays a Confederate and Union veteran. [size=-2](photo: [/size]

blimey too many too mention!

remember this is only a taster i'm sure there are many more , and no doubt there are many other countries who use the fasces but who could measure up to the forces of the empire?

 

Style and iconography .. architecture are evident.. yeah but thats not that unique .. lots of countries have been influenced by that style.. using it so evidently ..possibly not.. though 'roman influence' is around in lots of different ways.. like many other influences. You were trying to draw a parralel earlier [i thought] .. I thought you might have expanded on the earlier thought ?.

Niether is it the despotic nightmare ..filled with 'higher ups' weilding power with the 'puppets' in key roles in goverment.. You mock me, but you can't see the extremes you are at ... If anything you live in a much more scarier fantasy and thankfuly only the few live in it.

 

well how do you think it works then? certainly not by worker control...

no i don't. i live in relative comfort and affluence. the ppl who live in the "scary fantasy" would be the many murdered in wars every day, mostly children, and the 85% of so of the world's population who don't know where their next meal's coming from. should we tell them it's all a figment of their imagination?

 

I was only joking, but thats the kind of thing i hear .. obviously you believe this to be true . I was hoping you were being slightly hyperbolic [obviously not]..

Ok james... We both live in the same world, but view it in different ways [for various different reasons]. For whatever reason you have decieded to go for the prism were the 'evil' American empire is trying to take over the world. I would imagine killing those in its way with bombs and guns used against them and sold too them by them. All of this could be true to varying degrees ..but you seem to keep to the hightened extreme and speculation and never enter the 'reality' i am within... I visit your reality sometimes just to see things with a different perspective.. and too re-focus my own personal perspective.
I appreciate the world is a bit shit, though i think your No.s are a bit off..
Through slow gradual world diplomacy the world is getting safer and richer [because of those lovely capitalist bastards] .. There is still a horribly scarey amount of people that the world overlooks..i agree.
We should not tell them anything is a figment of anybodys imagination.. Just let them enter what reality they wish. Some may come to see it your way and others mine. .. Some [if they have any sense] like neither of us.