This is an honest question. I have studied Jewish mythology, and i know that both the Torah and the Koran have the same stories of God, but in the theological origins of the two deities, are they the same? What is the pre-islamic story of Allah, as the moon god. If he was the Arabic moon god, then how did he become associated with the Jewish deity Yahweh, who is said to have originally been a wine god. I have read the stories of Yahweh/El being jealous of his wife for having an affair with Ba'al, and his rebellion agains sex, women and pretty much becoming a prude. But how did Allah develop his ways on the same subjects. SO basically, is there a point at which the similarities either begin or end, or are they in fact the same deity all the way back, or is it just a misunderstanding of the two that makes them the same?
I have no reason to doubt that and I greatly appreciate it. Thus I think your question deserves a non arbitrary answer. The arabs have another word for "a God", the word "ilah" such as in the islamic conefession of faith; "La ilaha Illa Allah, Muhammadan Rasoolul Allah" A translation might look like this; "There is no god(ilah) (worthy to be worship) except God(Allah)". Theres to two different words used for god! The word ilah means anything that can be worshipped, a stone a bone etc and can be made into plural(aaliha) while the word Allah cannot be changed in such a way. It cannot be turned in to plural nor can it receive a plural or gender (such as "goddess) nor can it even be associated by altering the word into something human(such as "Godlike", Godfather etc) The name is used by christian and jewish arabs aswell because it specifies the one true God of Abraham, Moses and Jesus(peace be upon them). Thus the pagan arabs living with the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) knew of Allah as their Creator and Substainer but they refused to stop associating partners with him, this can be found in verses like: (interpretation of the meaning): If indeed thou ask them who has created the heavens and the earth and subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law), they will certainly reply, "Allah". How are they then deluded away (from the truth)? 29.61 The history of this name as an old moongod is vague and cannot be substantiated, especially because it was known that the arabs refered their Creator and Substainer as Allah. Among His Signs are the Night and the Day, and the Sun and the Moon. Do not prostrate to the sun and the moon, but prostrate to Allah, Who created them, if it is Him ye wish to serve. (41.37)
So does that mean that El, Yahweh, and Allah are the same deity by different names? Since Yahweh is the God of Abraham, or is Yahweh not the true god of abraham but Allah is? I have recently taken a facination with Semitic mythology, and would like branch out into the Arab as well, for better understanding. So expect questions lol.
So Adam (not brave enough to spell your screen name again, sorry ;P ) Al-lah is THE g-d? and Heron, the names you used are simply different names for differenct aspects of Ha Shem. Sort of like old kings who were leaders of this, fathers of that and emporers of the other. Make sense?
No, he's not the same deity. If Allah is the same deity as YHVH, why does he tell one group of people to do one thing, and tell another group of people to do a different thing? Where was Islam ever prophesized in the Old Testament? Why do the religions contradict each other if the gods are the supposedly the same?
My theory is..... El was the father god of Abraham and the Canaanite people, he was the supreme of the pantheon. The Hebrews were pantheists as well, even when they went back to worship of Ba'al while Moses was on Sinai. I think that El was the true god of Abraham, and that Yahweh came onto the scene when he confronted Moses in the Burning Bush. He said he was the god of Abraham, but refused to give a name. Moses believed him, and took his word back to Egypt. After the Exodus, Moses preached to the Hebrews that Yahweh was jealous and must be worshipped alone, acknowleding the reality of other gods, and they and Moses took covenent with Yahweh that they would worship him alone. Yahweh convinced Moses of who he was. Got the Hebrews to agree he is their one god, he literally chose them, that is why they are "Gods Chosen" Anyway, enter Elijah years later. Of and one the Jews kept their covenent with Yahweh. Elijah went to preach against their worship of Ba'al (who Yahweh had already absorbed) He challenged the 450 prophets, and alas was the winner. Since Ba'al was dead, by Yahweh, he couldnt participate. To prove his strength, Yahweh later sends a storm, after Elijah slaughtered Ba'al's priests of course (starting the whole killing in the name of god complex that Yahweists always fall back on) to show that he was indeed more powerful that Ba'al, the storm god. El was sort of distant, but Yahweh (El's "new self") was always eager to show off and rush to help, like people who do charity for the good name. The Hebrews eventually stuck with their convenent and became true monotheists. I used to theorize that Yahweh took a break after Jesus, and during the building of the Church, onlly to appear 600 years later to Mohammed. That the Christians were worshipping Jesus, while the Jews still worshiped Yahweh, and that he appeared later to the arabic tribes. But recent finds change my theory. Yahweh was always with the Jews. He chose them. But he was a con. He never was the god of Abraham, El was, and that he used Moses as a tool of propoganda, with all the credit he received in the books Moses wrote. Jesus was a prophet of El, telling the Jews to come back to their father, the father of their tribe. But the Jews were waiting on the prophet promised by Yahweh, which Jesus was not. El, the true god of Abraham, re-appeared to Mohammed, of the Ishmal line, as Al-lah. Once again becoming the supreme god to his people. The Arabs left their pantheons behind and worshipped their one true god of Abraham, Allah. The scholars say that El (canaanite god) was just the first name of Yahweh, and that he eventually became supreme over the pantheon. Yahweh was a war god of another pantheon of the time only to go on a quest to become a supreme god. His jealousy lead to the war in heaven, he wanted to be the Supreme. The story is flipped. The parts of the Bible that talk about the war in heaven was written by Moses, by Yahweh telling him the story. Yahweh, wanting to be the good guy, the God of Abraham, wanted to sound the best. He told of the war in heaven, of his opposer and how he was cast down. (dont worry of Lucifer,that name was added later by Romans) What happened in the war in heaven? The Supreme God (El) had his world, and his angels. But someone wanted all of that, someone wanted the glory. There was a war, and he was cast down. I think he (Yahweh) was cast down, and when he was, he went to Moses, convinced him who he was, and started on his way to becoming the Supreme God he wanted, through lies and propoganda. And that is how i see the evolution of middle eastern monotheism. But i am a European pagan, so it doesnt really matter much to me, just my latest passion of research and thought.
Well not exacly because the arabs have a name for "The god" which is Al-Ilah, the name Allah is different sence its a name of the god we worship and cannot like Al-Ilah be changed to Al-Aaliha(The Gods). I know that Ahmed Deedat spent a few pages on his pamphlet "What is His name?" to explain the name of god; http://jamaat.net/name/name3.html Erise, the christians arabs use the word Allah refering to the god mentioned in the OT/NT. If you think that Allah, mentioned in the Quran is different from the god of the previous scriptures you may notice that the OT speaks about God as one and without any son then all of a sudden "hes a father" with a son?? Is it not clear that the concept of God in the bible has been altered alot? The Quran only reminds the people of the orginal message sent to Abraham(peace be upon him), which includes rebuking innovations such as trinity. "Where was Islam ever prophesized in the Old Testament?" I dont think you understand the concept behind the religion of islam, the people who followed the tora were muslims as well as those who followed the gospels when they were revealed. The bible was sent from God -but came to be altered at the hands of men and priests(which is historicly proven)- the religion has always been islam(which means submitting one self to God). The religion of Adam, Abraham, Moses and Jesus(peace be upon them all) were all the same, i.e islam. You most surely agree that Christ submitted him self to God, by definition he is then a muslim and those who truely followed him were also muslims but today the christians has deviated from his way. They worship him instead of the one he ordered them to worship(Mark 12:29 and severel other places), they(catholics) worship saints like the polytheist, obey priests instead of God and they believe in a concept which was never sent down by god, ie. trinity. If you mean prophieces about Muhammed(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) Ide refer you to: http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91308 Heron, your post contains more conjecture than the theory of evolution ; )
Adam, historically, in the Levant and Semetic areas, including the Arabian peninsula. Judaism was the first Patriarchal Monothiestic faith to survive as a unified entity. I know that the definition of islaam is submission, so semantically, your argument is sound. Historically, Islam is more of an evolution of Monotheism by Muhmmad (PBH) The Torah is an earlier document, and we know for fact that Muhammad lived after the time of the destruction of the Second Temple. Heron, I am at heart universalist in this thinking: all diety is one and we all come up with stories to explain what we cannot grasp. BUT, in legend, Ba'al was merely a consort to Astarte. She (Shenekah in modern Judaism) was the power. It was a lunar culture, as were the Arabs prior to Islam's founding. Judaism is lunar today, despite the acknowledged worship of a solar god.
I am also a universalist, but opposite. I instead believe in every deity, and that they are worshipped by their followers legitimately. I believe that they are all individuals (with the exception of some overlap) To me the true universal mind is to accept others faiths as legitimate as your own, in that their gods are as real as mine, not comfine their gods to some sort of consolidation, because that is not fair to their religion. As to Ba'al, he wasnt just a consort, he was a storm god, and had his own followers and cults to him, but he was just one of a pantheon. He is also the one who had the affair with Asherah, El's wife, and lead to a big stink in the pantheon as well.
to me all faiths are legit (in theory, wars over my god can beat up yoour god are an exception. So are televangelists.) because we all are after the same things, ultimately. Our definitions change with culture and gender, perhaps, but I think we all want to know someone is looking out for us.
I agree. I read something really interesting, in the book History of God, the author speaks of when Elijah has Ba'al's priests all murdered, that that was really the first time that killing in the name of a god had happened. Her angle with that was that when cultures merged, that pagans had no qualms about including another god or two in their pantheons, and would have never killed someone for not including theirs. I thought that was a pretty interesting perspective. They fought wars over real issues, like food, land, etc. Never over who worshipped what god. Of course they pitted their gods against each other in battle, but that is far different than killing in their gods name, for lack of worship from their victims. Anyway, regardless of our perspectives, the Universal thought is just that, universal, and is welcoming and accepting regardless of how we interpret it. But i still like to dig into old religion and match it all up, who knows, one day i may be right lol.
So you're a henotheist, meaning you believe in the presence of many gods, but you think that one is greater and more powerful than all the rest?
