Vegatable's HAVE RIGHTS TOO!

I am grateful I have food, but I'd never say grace or thank the food

 

Wizarddrew: So you are Sioux? That explains a lot about why you believe the way you do. Won't you reply to my response so we can have a good discussion?

 

In response to so many of you saying that Plants have no emotions-feelings-or Spirit.
They like us are also mostly water.
There is a very good book out called The Hidden Messages in Water-it introduces the revolutionary work of internationally renowned Japanese scientist Masaru Emoto, Who has discovered that molecules of WATER are affected by our thought, words, and most of all our feelings! Since we humans and also our Earth Mother are composed mostly of WATER, His message is one of PERSONAL GROWTH,GLOBAL ENVIRONMENTAL RENEWAL, and A PRACTICAL PLAN for PEACE that STARTS WITH EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US!


This Waterfall is right near my home and I go there often when I need to be one with The Universe which I consider you all a part of. I look into The Water and send it Love-Light-Peace and HEALING to us all. I have noticed that The Waterfall is also changing and is so alive. One of my thoughts lately is that we have a healing on this site where we all come to find healing-laughter and joy. Over the years it has helped me thru many hard times. I fear that the energy right now is very dark and is very EGO BASED. The purpose of THE EGO is to DESTROY ITSELF! I think we need to be aware of that and change our thoughts and ALL GET ALONG! This is OUR COMMUNITY and let's not fall into the trap our present leaders are in RIGHT NOW in IRAQ. That is also EGO BASED and we can ALL SEE WHERE THAT IS HEADED. So my fellow Hippies-Today I look at the water and send it LOVE, HEALING AND RENEWAL IN ME AND ALL OF YOU!
I also GIVE THANKS for the exchange of all of our ideas on here-even if we do not agree with eachother. My intent on starting this thred was to make you become aware that no matter what we eat-GIVE THANKS for it giving itself up so that you can survive. I acknowledge what you Vegans are doing and it makes my heart glad that you are for all of the four leggeds. I just thought it was about time someone lift up thier voice for our Green Brothers and Sisters. As far as my spelling-hey like I give a shit. With Love The WIZ

 

vegetable's have rights. yeah they do.

 

thank you.

 

To answer an earlier question, I am Gnostic, of the Pagan variety.

 

I have read excerpts from this book, and it's mostly just incoherent babble. That's why it's not even accepted whatsoever in any reliable scientific community.

The points that the author makes are weak and are logically inconsistant; his conclusions do NOT follow from the flawed experiments that he's done. Most of the book is just him asserting his opinion and backing it up with information that doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

Also ... if this was true, you'd think those experiments would be repeated *all over the world* by scientists. But there's a reason why they aren't: because it's baloney.

And back when I was Christian, whenever I was upset or disturbed, I used to lay on my back on the bed, and pretend that I could feel the warmth of God coming down and soothing me. And yes, it made me feel better. Not because God actually exists, but because the mind is a powerful tool. The reason I usually did this is because of my family arguing at eachother's throats, and no matter how many times I prayed, nothing ever came of it. Just because you feel better by pretending something or visualizing something with your mind doesn't mean it actually exists.

You talk like you're an expert, but ... I also have an ego, and I'm not walking around trying to commit suicide. The purpose of the ego is clearly NOT to destroy itself ... but rather to sustain itself. That's why I work to keep myself from dying.

Indeed. =) It's a pleasure to argue with you, if that makes any sense. Again, don't take my satirical replies personally; they'd be the same whether it was you who posted or someone else, aye?

 

You just can't mix beliefs with opinions and facts. Arrgh.

Just like you can't mix religion with politics, it won't work.

*sigh*

 

Add:

Instead of questioning it... Let ominvores do their thing, let veggies and vegans do theirs...etc.

I don't understand the sort of thinking placed into being okay with eating an animal corpse, anymore than you understand how we find it non-hypocritical to eat plants.

You can't fully understand the differences in someone, unless you can literally see it from their angle and perspective... but when it comes to belief systems, it's pretty impossible to do so, as a belief is where your camera is stationed, and won't budge.

Opinions are flexible.

Facts are facts.

You just can't argue, or persuade when it comes to beliefs, unless:
A. your mind is easily molded
B. your down with cults.

[the point is: the entire vibe of this thread, and your last reply, rubbed me as more of a belief than opinion or anything else. Discussing beliefs is cool, a good learning experience for us all, but don't expect to get anywhere with it ]

 

okay, I will admit to not reading through every post in this thread, but I have a question. And I don't feel like dedicating a seperate thread to the subject.

Vegan propaganda uses the unethical treatment of animals as their main reasons why people should stop consuming animals. They don't consider thousands of years of natural human history where people ate animals, or used animal products to live. But that's not really the point.

My question is, why are vegans so anti-meating eating when just eating from ethical, smaller organic family farms would do the exact same thing about the unethical treatment of animals? I eat organic, and from smaller farms around my area. I don't eat animals that were slaughtered carelessly and cruelly. I realise that they died in similar ways, but as far as I'm concerned, we (everyone, including animals) were made for a purpose and some, maybe most animals, were made to eventually be consumed. Humans were made with a purpose, and if that purpose were to be caring for our animals and planet, well we're not doing it, that's for sure. Maybe we should start. (another topic altogether, sorry). But as far as I see it, eating meat is natural. Humans thousands of years ago ate animals, and we haven't evolved so much since then.

/question-rant

 

My rebuttle:

First and foremost, it's not necessarily *natural*...it's just that humans are opputunivores [I've heard this word thrown around, and I'm sticking with it, it works well] We can eat whatever we want, without using survival instinct what so ever--- "Hmm, that Big Mac looks tasty, though it made lead to my ultimate heart attack of DEATH"

Not all, but most creatures of the wild are more in tune with their survival instincts to realize when something is not suitable for their diet... However, I've noticed that... Whenever a species becomes civilized or domesticated, they lose a shit load of survival instincts... For one, chocolate is bad for dogs, right? But yet, my dog always begs for it. Out in the wild, unless a wolf was starving to death, you wouldn't see that wolf going after your chocolate bar, he'd be going after YOU, because flesh is the healthier option for their systems.

My point, of this first issue is... is it really natural? Or do we just think so? I've heard an argument that most cavemen lived off of plants, and leafy substances, and occasionally bugs... but then, more commonly I've heard, they were hunters. It's *not* really proven... we can take a look at the skeletel structure and artifacts, and create ideas, theories, and assumptions... but we don't know.

MORE SO, regardless of how *natural* it is or isn't... is it even worth it THESE DAYS? Observe how many people are becoming sick with diseases like E.Coli, mad cow, Chronic Wasting, amongst heart disease, colin cancer, etc... Regardless of whether or not it was natural, and healthy in the past... is it NOW? Things change, and I'm right on with evolution... The human figure is always changing to better adapt to the environment that surrounds it. It is a FIRM OPINION of mine, that maybe all of this is a signal, a warning, that now, meat is NOT suitable for humans to consume.

Maybe not.

Now.... my rebuttle to your first and foremost question... I'm sorry, but I just *can't* even begin to even agree a little with the idea that "The animals were killed more humanely, less cruel"...sure their living situation may have been better than those on factory farms, and sure they may not have suffered to death... However, can you really tell me that there is a humane way to KILL something? ANYTHING?

Now, say you were on death row, and they give you an option...they go to you and say "Would you prefer the electric chair, hanging, lethal injection...or..?" What would your reaction be? Wouldn't your first thought be "Um, ha, how about you don't kill me AT ALL!!!!!!!" My point is... whether it kills them faster, or less painfully... every creature on this earth has the will to survive...and right to at that. Taking away their very will to survive, and right to... is in my opinion, just bogus.

Not to mention, my biggest OVERALL opinion and rebuttle to you is ... there are SO many options aside from animal products, what is the NEED for meat anymore?! Now, it's just pure and utter "I like the taste better" Of course you probably see it differently, but TO ME, in my eyes, that is just selfish. I'm not saying YOU are, but I would feel selfish indulging in things like so... when there are other options, to keep me healthy.

No matter how a cow, pig, chicken, etc. is treated, they aren't able to live a life that they could have...if we hadn't taken their freedom away.

Nor is there EVER a humane way of killing something. It's death, regardless.

*clears throat*

Please, don't be offended, just replying to your questions from my perspective....

 

I agree with Apples+Oranjes, and would also like to add one thing:
Small, organic farms are humanely better than factory farms. However, it is impossible to sustain the current demand for animal products in a family farm setting. The only way to meet the huge demand is by industrializing the process of raising and slaughtering animals. By eating meat, even if it comes from small, organic farms, you are contributing to the demand that leads to the horrendous suffering that is the factory farm system.

If you must eat meat, then by all means go with the more humane option. But the most compassionate decision would be to stop eating meat.

 

not to mention what animal farms do to our environment.....

 

well, as far as death options given me, it wouldn't really matter to me. You're talking to one of those rare people that isn't going to stop death when it wants to take me, no matter what form that death takes. *shrugs* It's my firm opinion that this planet is WAY too overpopulated...why? Because we hate to see things (mostly people) die. And that's fine. If you want to save yourself, your kids, you parents, your grannie, go ahead. But again, that's a different thing altogether...not meant to be brought up here.

In reference to your answer to my question: That seems very logical. We are adapting and evolving, and I do notice that domesticated animals seem to lose instinct. You'd never release a house dog in the wild. He'd die in a matter of days.

And I wasn't necessarily talking about primitive man. I was talking about those nomadic cultures that we DO know about. The native americans, the nomadic cultures of the middle-eastern plateaus. They ate meat. They weren't really a sedentary society. They followed their instincts more closely than their domesticated counterparts and generally that meant eating more meat.

Anyway, as part of a domesticated culture, maybe it isn't necessary to eat meat. However, it seems any healthy way to eat is becoming damned near impossible. Too expensive. It's cheaper to buy a 5 lb. bag of cheesy poofs than to buy one lb. of any veggie. It's ridiculous.

 

Unfortunately, a side effect of supply-in-demand economics is that if the demand for a product is huge enough, and the technology exists to meet that demand, the price generally drops. Cheesy poofs are cheap because so many people eat them. If more people purchased organic, wholesome food, the price of those foods would drop until the supply out-stripped the demand, in which case, the price would either go up again, or more land would be devoted to organic farming instead of commercial farming.

That being said, even though you can eat food that is bad for you for very little money, being a Vegan does not have to be expensive. I eat almost 100% organic, and I only spend around $85 US dollars per week on food. That's $4.00 per meal at three meals per day, but I also eat a snack every day, which drops the per meal price somewhat. If I were to shop sales and eat more conventionally grown produce, I'm confident that I could eat for $50 per week or less. Now, depending on how much you make, $50 might be a lot of money. But I know I wasn't spending less when I was a meat eater.

 

I don't think ayone posted this yet: animals eat plants. Hence, by us eating animals, we are eating plants. So by eating vegetarian, even though we still eat plants, we ease the suffering of animals, which is better than nothing being we cannot not eat plants, unless we learn to photosynthesize.

 

Allow me to answer this question.

Let's assume we are talking about cow farming.

In order to obtain milk from a cow, the cow must be pregant.

Even at organic family farms that MIGHT treat their cows half decently, the cows are artificially impregnated birth after birth after birth, and they are separated from their young only HOURS after they are born. For days later, both the mother cow and the young calf can be heard crying for eachother, which is why after only 4 or 5 such births, cows tend to have to be slaughtered, because they lose their will (and thus become very sickly) and eventually can't even have a successful birth again.

Beyond that, family farms still tend to slaughter extra young calves.

Before humans invented tools and fire, they were unable to capture and/or eat animals. There is a VAST amount of evidence that humans were previously herbivores.

Then one day, we humans learned how to capture and cook animals to make them tasty. We are not "omnivores" per se, we are "opportunivores," in that we have a MUCH greater chance of living if we are able to do more than wander around and eat fruits and berries in minature tribes.

The human stomach is not designed to digest meat. It is very hard on the digestive system, and meat is not as nutritious as a diet rich in vegetables. This is evident in the fact that vegetarians tend to live 8 to 10 years longer than opportunivores.

 

out of curiosity, who decides what is natural and unnatural?

Some may say anything humans do is natural. Others may say almost nothing humans do is 'natural.'