Testimony time! :D

well I am not going to get all hung up on technicalities. God sees the heart and if someone repented, got baptised without using the correct phrases, or even got baptised by a Jesus-loving mute, lived thier life for Christ and followed His example to the best of thier ability, i dont think God would say..."sorry, you should have used the right words in the water that day"

 

Praise Bog!!!

 

It has nothing to do with, "the right words". It is the difference between Spiritual truth and false prophecy. Christ stated that there would be many who came after him, claiming to be his, but were wolves in sheeps clothing who would twist and manipulate his words. Anyone who preaches anything that does not coincide with the Scriptures is not of God (this is what I speak of when I say, "Mainstream Christianity's teacher's ~ they are the wolves). I do not show you this to belittle you, I show you because I do not want you to fall by the wayside of fallaciousness. God's word never changes, but false prophets change them.

 

LOL...Religious wars are more entertaining (and as useless) as cola wars!

 

alright but if a Jesus loving mute baptised a new Christian, wouldnt that be good enough in God's eyes?

 

LOL, you are a sly one, aren't you? I bet if a Jesus loving mute was baptized in Christ's name, he would be healed and able to speak once again... then filled with the Spirit.

Baptism is Christ's name does bring healing... both emotional and physical (as I said, the blood of Jesus is the sacrifice for sin, and it brings healing and restoration to the body and soul). I have experienced physical healing afer baptism.

You are looking at it the wrong way. God wants to live inside of us.. he wants to fill us with his Holy Spirit. This is how we become one with him. The end of the John 3:5 verse that I spoke (Jesus) says, "unless a man is born of water and Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven." Why? because we must know him. If we do not possess his Spirit, then we do not know him.

 

This absolutely could happen, because G-d is capable of all things. However, I don't think that everyone who is saved is released from their bondage to whatever infirmaties are in their lives. I don't believe that there would be little Christian children who die due to complications from their disabilities if this were true... And they do, daily.

Might I suggest that G-d knows our hearts, and words don't matter as much as the feelings/faith behind it? I think that if we limit Christ's Salvation to only those who were or weren't baptized in the names of the Trinity, were getting caught up in religious pomp and circumstance again. Ritual over real relationships... You know?

Indeed... 'Cause none of us is really gonna know until that final curtain closes. We'll all just have to see what happens...

 

Words are not the point. The point is truth. God's truth verses man's perception. The Lord has one way, yet, man will try to find several different ways of his own doing. Baptism of water and Spirit are not rituals. As stated in previous posts, Baptism in water and Spirit are necessary for Salvation according to Christ's own words.

 

I'm afraid you misunderstood me. No one is debating the necessity of the baptism by water and spirit. I'm speaking of baptism in the name of the Trinity versus baptism in the name of Christ alone. I'm quite aware of the fact that Christ told us to go out and baptize one another in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost... That's why I wanted to understand your view on the subject a bit better.

 

Yet, his apostles understood that these were titles, not of the Trinity, but that Jesus Christ is the Father, the Son in humanity, and the Spirit (which he gave up at the cross), thus, after his death, they baptized in his name. He was the sacrifice, he was the human blood that was shed for our sins. Baptism is announcing our death and burial from this world as he died and was buried. Thus baptism in the name of Jesus.

"Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under Heaven given to men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12)

"Or do you know that all of those who were baptized into Jesus Christ, were baptized into his death" (Acts 6:3)

 

O good... Now I can understand how you feel a bit better.

I guess that still leaves the question... Do you feel that people who were baptized in the name of the Trinity are still unsaved, even if they've shown evidence of the Baptism of the Spirit (i.e. tongues, prophecy, changed lives)?

And by correlation, is seahorse's hypothetical Jesus-loving mute still unsaved if, by chance, his disability does not dissipate when he goes to accept Christ?

I guess I have a problem with that. I know you've had personal healing experiences, and I really *do* think that's wonderful. But I know many decent Christian folks who have not had healing, regardless of their relentless praying. I don't believe that they're unsaved just because they still struggle with the limitations of their bodies, nor do I believe that their continued struggle is in any way "punishment" for missing the mark.

Good verses... Indeed, salvation cannot be attained through anyone else but Christ, and we accepted our fate to suffer along with Him when we made the decision to enter into the Body.

But there is no evidence in these scriptures or elsewhere that the power is merely in the name itself, like a magic word of sorts. Rather the power comes from that which the name refers to... Whether we call Him Jesus, The Christ, or even Y'shua, healing is found in His Name because He is the Living One, not because of the name itself.

 

"God's truth" IS man's perception.

 

According to the Holy Spirit, yes. Keep in mind, even though one does fulfill the salvation plan, it does not mean that they now possess a free ticket into Heaven.

I honestly cannot answer that question because I have never been exposed to anyone who is deaf in church, needing to receive the baptism of the Spirit. I will pray in the Spirit for an answer to the question posed.

I would not say that because one is not healed that they are being punished.

The blood sacrifice is applied through the name, because Christ is the sacrifice. We use the name because God's manifestation in humanity, as Jesus Christ, is our salvation. The concept of the Trinity was not even born until 325 A.D. by Constantine during the Nicea Council. The Lord's hand picked followers, through the baptism of his Spirit (which they received in Acts 2:4) understood the message that Jesus was conveying to them. Thus, you find that every single person baptized in the Bible, was baptized in Christ's name, God adding numbers to that daily. God gave us the Bible as instructions for our life, and in reading it, you will find that every example he has given us of baptism is in Jesus name.

 

i think both of you misunderstood my question. I said "what if a jesus-loving mute baptised a new believer, would that not count to God? God looks at our hearts, right? I'm sure we dont need to speak the words outloud in order for God to accept the baptism, or any other sacrament. Also, it says in the Bible that anyone who believes in the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 16:31

anyways i think this is one of those things that Christians cant all agree on, whether baptism is necessary for salvation. Some think it is, some think it isn't.
My take on it is, If you turn to Christ and you're heading to the water to get baptised but get hit by a mack truck on your way across the street towards the lake, where do you suppose your soul would go? definately not hell, because God knew your heart was sincere.

 

I don't know if I can agree with that... I may have to agree to disagree with you. From my understanding, the Spirit will not dwell in those who aren't saved, and it especially won't grant them the Gifts of the Spirit.

That's more than fair.

I checked out the United Pentacostal Churches standpoint on the Trinity, and while they do state that they don't accept the Trinity to be three separate "persons", they do recognize that Father, Son, and Spirit are the three "offices" used by G-d in His Relationship with us. So, it would seem to me that those who are baptized in the Trinity are baptized in Christ, even if the relationship of the Father, Son, and Spirit is misunderstood.

Be mindful that most of the major denominations would describe themselves as Trinitarian... Even if we assume that you are correct about baptism in the name of Jesus being the only valid baptism, then that means people are turning their lives over to Him... serving Him, loving Him, worshiping Him, and doing their utmost to bring others to Him... All for nothing.

The door to heaven is slammed in their faces when they arrive, and their faith and hope has all been in vain, due to this alleged mass deception that G-d has both allowed and seemingly encouraged in our world today.

Yet, there is no injustice with G-d?

 

I felt like sharing my testimony/life story : ) Even though it really isn't that dramatic...

I will start out with a little background of my family and where I lived. I grew up in the same house in the Chicago suburbs until I was 19 and went off to college. I lived with my dad, mom and sister in a wealthy area but we were in a lower class subdivison. My immidiate family is Christian and basically all of my extended family is also "Christian."

I asked Jesus into my life when I was 10 years old, when my mom asked me if I wanted to. However, I never really thought about it to much until I faith was tested as a believer.

As my teen years came about, things started changing. I went to a large public junior high (650 kids in all) and in 8th grade I had made the basketball team. I had started to hang out with the basketball players while in the process losing my old friends. I became very popular throughout school. By the time high school rolled around I was a supreme athlete and one of the "Big men on campus" : )

Although it was great being in the spotlight for once, the people and the type of atomosphere they hung around in just did not seem right. The stuff my friends did were nothing Jesus would do. With this thought on my mind: I had to make a choice: Do I want my live for my own glory or live for God's? I chose the narrow gate over the wide gate.

As my decision came and pass, so did my "friends." They no longer wanted to hang with me. Perhaps I was an anchor to their ship. By the end of my freshman year and throughout my sophomore year I did not have many friends and felt very alone. My sophomore year I played both basketball and volleyball which kept me busy and I was not doing the greatest in school. Out of all my years of my life this was one my more downer years.

However, by my junior year I began to fall out the slump. I became close friends with a kid name Nolan. He was a Christian and became basically my only Christian friend in a school that had 3300 people in it! His fellowship was key into getting me back on track.

But that is not all that helped me seek the Lord with all my heart. My father played a vital role in helping me see the truth. His stories, his talks, and his example overall really showed me how to live my life. I am glad that God gave me a dad that is first of all a Christian and second of all knowledgeable. As I really started living my life for Christ it began to show to other people. They began to ask questions and so did I. I was grateful that my dad knew what he was talking about when it came to God and the Bible and that he always talked about Him throughout my life. So when the time of testing came upon me and I started to question: How do you know there is a God? How do you know the Bible is true? How do you know that Christianity is the only way? ect. my dad was right there answering every question I asked and other questions people asked to me with authority.

In my junior and senior years of high school I really was on fire for Jesus and started to spread the word of Christ in abundance. I must have told hundreds of people throughout those two years. I got into many conversations between many people about about all different types of subjects concerning the Bible and God . I was labeled a "Jesus Freak" and verbally persecuted frequently.

Although I did not hang out with the popular crowd anymore, the time of when I did still lingered. I still talked to them at school and on online. I believe God allowed me to become friends with "In-Crowd" so I could eventually tell them about his words. Because lets face it, I don't think the kids in Bible club were making much of an impact. It's kind of like this scenario: Christians always witness to the poor, but who witnesses to the rich? You will see people asking for donations to for an African mission trip but how many times do you see people asking for donations for a Malibu mission trip : ) All and all, Christianity isn't limited to the poor and the unattractive. When God says everyone He means everyone, no matter what social class. Ultimately, God has a plan for everyone who chooses His way.

 

You're starting to sound lika a New-apostolic, you go to a Pentacostal if I remember correctly, right?

 

That's very wonderful.

You being an out-cast reminds me of someone.
I know a guy here in Germany.
And you think AMERICAS bad? - go to Europe.
It's all religion and tradition here,, the people get taught Bible things in school.
Anyways, he is shy and a total outcast, eventhough it's not for his faith. He won't talk with them about Jesus, because they'd totally beat him up emotionally, I'm the only Christian youth he can talk about with Jesus.
But his faith just astonishes me, how faithful he is eventhough this is such a tough society. The guy's not even spirit baptised yet, and he has 3 times the faith of me.

Anyways, just reminded me of him. That's a nice testimony pal.