Im talking about psychologist B.F Skinner's vision of a utopian society based on principles of behavioural engineering. Would anyone like to live in a community like this?
What EXACTLY do you mean by "behavourial engineering"? i dont like the sound of it. Do you mean regulating how humans act, ie making is like flesh puppets, with some1 else controling how we act? or do you mean using gm to narrow the boundaries of our possible actions? or do you mean something wholely different? peace and love
Well you might read the book - it is basically a system of labor sharing based on perceived value of work. It has the same problems that a lot of communal ideas have. Either they would have to live at a substance level to start (until they got more people with skills) or they would be somewhat parasitic on society in general. Just as I am in some senses supporting poor labor practices in other countries by typing these words.
well i learned alot about skinner's work before i read the book. behavioural engineering is basically using positive or negative reinforcement of peoples actions to produce more or less of a certain behaviour. classic example-someone tells a joke at a party, if everyone laughs (positive reinforcement) they are likely to tell a joke at another party. if nobody laughs (negative reinforcement) they are less likely to tell a joke at the next party. But in this particular book, it was more like principles of efficiency. anyway, it didnt appeal to me to live like this. I'd prefer to be a part of the 'real world' where there's spontaneity, and chance and the possiblity to meet other people. It's an interesting read for those interested in communal living.
An excellent analysis of the subject and I quite agree with you. We are going to have to make changes to the real world. Not retreat into a group enclave.
well i dunno how realistic walden 2 is...but i'm forever in debt to it. skinner's book let me to kat kinkade's A Walden 2 Experiment: the First 5 Years of Twin Oaks which i hope to make my eventual destination (they pretty much gave up on behavioural engineering early on from what i gather). it's been a long time coming...over 10 years, but sooner rather than later i'm going to stop saying "i think that's the type of life i want to lead" and actually do it.
ok well this all sounds very erie from the way u describe it, but at least its not genetically modifying subjects to narrow their possible actions parametres
Twin Oaks, in Virginia, was orginally based on Walden 2. I get the feeling from their website that they're really bureaucratic, very rule-oriented. They have a very complex set of rules. One section of what must be a 100 page document reads: "In the event that a member, after leaving the Community as above described, shall change his mind within 30 days and wish to return, the Community may, at its discretion, readmit him to his former status and treat the intervening time as if it had been vacation. However, under these circumstances the Community is not obliged to provide . . . " bla bla bla Man it sounds like a commune of freaklin' lawyers! Anyway, see for yourself at http://www.twinoaks.org/
Thanks for the link - gives us all a chance to look for ourselves - The membership agreement seems to be standard for any sort of communal group. Groups without written agreements do not last long. In addition, one of the most basic requirements of freedom was to have a written set of laws that anyone could refer to at any time. If this country was run on as simple and open a document as they have, we would be better off. I do not think a human could lift the total of local, state and federal laws that they live under. Much less, read and understand them. With all that said, I still feel that communal living is parasitic on the larger organization and that time is better spent in changing the larger organization to make it more livable. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_Oaks is also helpful.
Hippypaul: I must say that I do not agree your statement that communal living is necessarily "parasitic on the larger organization and that time is better spent in changing the larger organization to make it more livable." The "larger organization" is currently being ruled by a small minority of business interestests (Dick Cheney & friends), so there's little we can do to make it more livable in the short term. Also, what do consider to be more "livable?" In addition, communal living is more natural (we lived in tribes for eons) and in many ways more efficient than our alienated capitalist culture, which wastes natural resources (we all have a lawn mower and a car and a vacuum cleaner, etc. instead of 40 people sharing one or two). Intentional communities such as Twin Oaks & Eastwind produce products which they sell. How is that parasitic?
And what happens when the plow blade breaks. You might have a blacksmith but you are not going to mine or refine the ore. That means you are responsible for the conditions under which the ore is mined and the steel is cast. Since you, me, and the people in the commune share the responsibility we should be working to make the world better for everybody.
yeh i was gonna say Twin Oaks is based on his book... But that was when it started and i dunno how much it's change since the begging... I was there for 3 weeks and am moving back semi-permanently in a couple days..... The impression I got from the place was pretty good. Didnt seem very buercratic... (although that might be different if you're part of managment). lol I know they used to raise all the kids in one building seperate from thier parents. and people throughout the community would help raise them. Also at one point in time they had these kinda weird baby play pens... if i remember correctly they were like plexiglass cubes that the kids spent the majority of thier day in.... It was supposed to be less confining than a play pen cause there were no bars and they kids could see everything... But it would keep they safe from getting sick or hurting themselves...... But anywho... If i pick up on my behavior being engineered while I'm living there I'll let yall know
My impression of Twin Oaks was soley taken from its website and therefore was only an impression which doesn't have much meaning. It may be a delightful place to live.
ya i was pretty averse to the idea of the children being seperated from their parents. They had quite a logical rationale for it in the book, but i still feel its pretty unnatural.
LOL I had the exact same thought! I suppose if they are a large community they would need written rules to deal with disputes and problem that are inevitable when you have a lot of people living together. It might be a great place. It is hard to tell just by their web site.
Any large community needs some rules to operate smoothly. Twin Oaks has been thriving for many years now. It's hard to knock that. Obviously, it isn't right for everyone, but it does what it proposes to do pretty well.
Don’t get me wrong. I was not “knocking it” at all. Of course a group that large would need rules otherwise their would be complete chaos. I just found some of the wording and rules to be kind of strange that’s all. Like any group, they have the right to do things the way they want and do what works for them.
i agree that communities, cities, nations need a set of rules and the simpler the better. i don't see how communal living is parasitic on our society. a lot of the innovation that's needed to create a better life is being done in those communities. something like a window to a future. it's damn difficult to find alternative construction in the US though there are a few examples. organic agriculture is practiced widely, perhaps exclusively, amoung communities and gaining ground steadily outside. sharing of resources is another great idea practiced in community and little seen outside of it. and think about all the old skills that are practiced there and not outside in the larger organization. a lot of good things come out of communities and it's not so easy to see. even if you go live in one or a dozen to see what it's all about and leave imagine all that you learned about living that couldn't be found any other place. you can now bring this knowledge to the larger organization. changing society is a long slow process but with intentional communities around we have some guidance in showing how to live the better life.
behavioural engineering =behaviour modification=brainwashing ..............same methods ,just different names .........i studied behaviour modification for 2 years in the 70s and when i read the other works it didn't take me long to realise that they were all the same ..just different names.......kind of like the popular sanctions of way back when and the shunning practiced by religions of today
