Free will

Hey I was wondering if anyone can explain "free will" to me logically.
How choice operates beyond determinism or chaos.

Because it just doesnt fit in my mind,unless of course the universe was completely illogical and chaotic,which would of course allow for any possibility,including a determined patterned world with some magical essence of choice infused into it somehow (doesnt matter how cuz its all illogical,winkly dinkly doo)

 

ya thats what i thought

 

hello , krin . yes , it's hard to be free :

free-will is not some absolute fact of
nature . everyone has been jived and
manipulated and coerced often enough
to accept at least this .

determinism and chaos are observations
of nature .

yet , i am essentially a nature man
and a musician , too . in music i
can play with all these ideas , and
ultimately i want my listener to be
free . i may give free-will , and this is
not easy either .

one aspect of this is to compose
a line so very logical that at some
exact point it must absolutely end .
tho , this means that the listener's
experience actually goes on and
on ... mmm , i might have trouble
explaining this conciousness but
assuredly , i am the enemy of oblivion .

 

Krin, look at it this way...

When trying to find a point on a map or graph, you make use of two axes. The X-axi and the Y-axis. The flow of events can be compared to that. Our future is determined also by two axes. One is the deterministic factor, based on your past deeds and the workings of the universe that surrounds you, shaping your circumstances. The other axis is your free will or free choice, which also plays a role in the future. Of course your past deeds account for the deterministic axis, so in that sense your chocies govern both axes, but since you have no more control over the past, it is deterministic only. All you have is now, what choices you make, which will steer the course of your future. These choices will govern both axes to different levels. Mathematically it can be likened to graph of a variable vs. a function of that variable.

 

People sometimes think that they have "free will" and can "choose" between different courses because their mind can move between each path rather easily and in fact, if you want to "test it out", then you can. But this "testing it out" to prove the point is actually a contradiction of the will. We are determined to take the course in life we do because of many factors and this is demonstrated in the cases where an observer can fairly well predict the course someone will take when acquainted with all the details of that persons' life, their likes and dislikes, motives, circumstances, history. This is not saying that we are determined to take the course we do by some mysterious force. It is only giving to people that same intelligible quality, call it determinism if you will, that we so readily give to inanimate objects.

 

" The other axis is your free will or free choice, which also plays a role in the future."

this doesnt explain anything further about how choice would operate.
not even dictionaries explain choice to any satisfaction,the whole theory is bullshit.
some peoples thought processes simply arent expanded enough to grasp what im saying,even tho the idea is quite simple.
Theres no seperation between human behaviour and an ant's behaviour,or the behaviour of a stream of water,or the behaviour of the cosmos.
You cannot choose your preferences,choice is about what you prefer to do,everything that is you stems back and back and back,the moment before now,before that,your birth,the creation of the sperm and egg,your parents and their lives moment by moment by moment,before that,thier parents,their lives,moment by moment by moment,through evolutionary past and beyond,everything subatomic and smaller,all energies and all interconnected interaction

you wouldnt be thinking what your thinking right now if you hadnt just read this sentence,you wouldnt have read that sentence if you hadnt been thinkign what you were thinkign before you read that sentence,you woudlnt be thinking what you were thinking before you read that sentence if whatever happened to you before hadn't happened,and so forth,its a sequence of utterly unchartable variables to the universal degree
whats the alternative?is there a logical alternative?or is it fairy magic?
does it matter?at least in my mind,no one can choose to understand what im saying or not...itll simply happen

did you choose to move your eyeball 1 milimetere to the right?the small hand movement,how about the very way you moved it,if it moved with a gentlness,or a direct sternness,did you choose that characteristic,did you choose to use those variety of symbols int hat tonme of voice,to move your tougne in that certain way.
did you choose what to think about?if you think you did,how did you choose to think about what to think about?what did you use to determine these decisions?
You weighed factors?why do you wiegh things differently?
why are soem things better and some things worse to you?did you decide that?

blah blah aha
just admit chocie is complete bullshit and ill shut up

 

the drive for freedom is that little child still left in us, still surviving the killing process of growing up. "i wanna do what i wanna do" the child screams. and so does the man as he badaffles on about why he should get to do this and that.

of course i love freedom too. lol.



and choice is bullshit. we're predestined by a million seemingly incoincidental choices and even the raising of our early childhood. putting all these together you can accurately call every move someone will make as they go through life, and their bearings on themselves will give them no choice but to make those choices.

 

ok.

 

last night i was driving around the country roads and got to

wondering about 'justification' . people are so clever about
justifing whatever .

in justifing , cause is manufactured and not determined .

 

in my opinion,that statement shows how you are very unaware of the magnitude of what the "details of your life" include.
they include everything that ever happened,anywhere,everywhere
this moment now,all variables contained within,are a massive manifestation of the variables before.
you are not a seperate entity in truth
on a certain "layer" there is a "configuration" we could generalize and call "you" but if we were to be truly concise,and pay attention to subtlety,and how the boundaries are not really clear cut division,but sort of an infinite paradox,where it is infinitely a seperate thing,but also an infinitely related and interacting connected thing,we see that truly everything is this way
the universe is one,and it isnt
yah but i know how i prolly seem nutty,since this is wierd acid-head philosophy
oh well its fun

 

That's true, you would have to know everything that ever happened in the universe, everywhere, just to predict someone's next move. We're that complex.

As far as choice goes, give our electro-chemical biological bodies, it's hard for me to figure out where choice comes in, when everything is just bouncing atoms and electricity. Maybe quantum physics has an answer, what with the inherent ambiguity to the universe, wave/particle duality. Maybe we're just choosing which particle the probability waves collapse to. I don't know, I've never really solved this problem for myself let alone coherently described it to anyone else.

I don't rule out choice though.

 

quantum physicists are kind of big-headed and silly,thinking just because they cant properly map the basis of physicality out,it must be random and "sTrAnGe"
if u ask why,your a determinist,thats the funny part,you ask for a cause
even if your answer is randomness or chaos or whatnot,its a cause,it causes a result,its determined then
multi-dimensions,universes,whatever,doesnt matter,if its THERE then its CAUSED
all is determinism

 

So really the problem is not with reality but with our ideas about reality...which is what I've suspected all along.

 

.



i can create cause .
i can create a cause
that will make an effect .
i can will the
cause to be spiritual
and in balance . the
effect is not determinable ,
just is . i give free-will .

 

Incomplete ideas are not a problem, they just aren't fully made. Is a partially contructed mansion beautiful to behold?

Construction sites are messy, although some are better kept then others.

 

I would agree that we "manufacture" cause.

 

A "cause" is only an inference made by the mind to associate objects that have been experienced to have preceded other objects which we call "effects". There is no reason to beleive that one has produced the other.

 

the will is not free

 

.



ah , ? The Will , of willfulness ... and it is certainly
a puzzle of discernment to see what i cause . it's often
more than i can know , not less .

the will is not absolute . the will to live
is not a law , yet is necessary to the
purpose of life .

 

its true,there actually is no real "cause" or "effect"

we shant say :
"this is so because of this,and that is because of this,and that is because of this"
what really must be said is
"there is this"

there is no sequence of things causing other things,but simply existance itself
whole,complete,and absolutely nothing
or something like that...