Once in a while you get shown the light...

I wasn't saying someone can't, I'm just saying, the MAJORITY of veggies and vegans don't go veggie or vegan SOLELY because of that.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it is an observation.

And sorry, I did misunderstand you. But, I was just simply saying, from my observations, I haven't encountered a veggie or vegan who simply did it because they were fed up with factory farms... yes, basically all veggies and vegans ARE, but most of them, also have other underlying beliefs as to why they went veggie or vegan.

If I didn't think killing an animal was wrong, and I was just angry about factory farming, I don't think I would personally, completely eliminate meat or other animal products from my diet, I would just choose to buy organic foods not from factory farms and huge industries. I know a lot of people who do that and aren't veggie; just like you.

But, I suppose not everyone always makes sense

 

I agree with you, and to back it up:

There have been studies that shows that too much milk can actually LEECH the calcium from your body, making you more prone to osteoperosis... the very thing the milk industry claims it prevents.

Synaptic aether, I know your point is exactly that--- moderation. Don't drink 10 glasses of milk a day, don't eat 3 steaks a day... and you'll be fine. But it's hard for society to understand that when there is constantly mixed information being thrown at them.

Just take a look at this FORUM and you can see where people would be confused. HOW ARE people supposed to figure out what is best for their bodies, when a bunch of different industries slam each other, and false advertise their own product? It's hard for anybody to know the truth.

Ever since I was a little girl, the milk industry has been saying "3 glasses of milk a day"--- and, parents buy that, bringing their children up on it and so forth. Until one day you learn, that might not be completely true, and it might not be the best thing for you... then it's like "where do I turn now?"

On top of all this, other options for calcium, or other nutrients, are being slammed by other industries, leaving people clueless.

Just as Iron Goth said on a different topic "Studies are showing soy might lead to brain damage"

But then, we also have the American Heart Association and other organizations and industries telling us that meat leads to heart disease and colon cancer, etc.

People are confused. Fuck, I know sometimes I am--- the trick is, I don't listen to others, I listen to MY BODY.

However, synaptic...chew on this: Why do humans believe that they must consume dairy throughout their whole lives to be healthy, when every other animal on this planet, only consumes their mother's milk until they are grown? You can obtain bits of calcium through other foods and beverages, but you don't need a glass of cow's milk to be healthy. That MUCH calcium is unnecessary, and can actually be UNHEALTHY.

Humans do NOT need dairy. It is UNNATURAL. There is no other animal in the animal kingdom that drinks ANOTHER SPECIE'S MILK. When you really think about it, and put it into perspective, it is just ABSURD.

To me meat is immoral--- but that's a personal belief.

But I must say, aside from my personal beliefs and opinions, meat makes more SENSE than dairy and the like, when you take a look at the rest of nature and the animal kingdom. And we ARE part of the animal kingdom.

 

I was reminded of a stand-up comedian who said, "How would you like it if you came home from work early and found a cow sucking milk out of your wife's breasts? The minute you finished beating off you'd shoot the bastard."

 

yea, too much milk has been the cause of millions of hormonal abnormalities is children.

totally. i spent 2 weeks working on and living off of my aunt's organic farm and they have tons of information on the truth about soy products and processed food. processed soy is actually more harmful to us than most people can believe. they tell us that soy is the answer when in actuality, they process it so much that it isn't worth anything anymore. my aunt is hardcore about raw foods and she totally convinced me. raw foods are the only thing that your body can fully get use out of. the more processed, the more energy it takes to digest and process. it ususally ends up as waste.

red meat and way way way too much beef (wich is considered a normal amount in the u.s.)

i totally agree. i'm sorry, i spoke too soon. i really try not to do that but sometimes, it just happens. i think it's mainly from tradition. who knows how the hell we decided to start drinking milk.. but somehow we found out that it was an easy source of calcium and fats and kept going like there couldn't be anything wrong with it. and sure, in more impoverised times, milk is better than nothing but if it isn't needed, and better sources are available, it's true, it is redicioulous.

 

I'm giving you total props. You have more balls than almost anyone on this forum, you have the courage and humbleness to see someone's point of view and admit it.
I truly admire that.

And I really do agree with you about quite a lot of what you said.

I think more people just need to start listening to their bodies, rather than what scientists and nutritionists tell us.

 

Why does it matter? Is it so bad if someone decides NOT to smoke, just because it's trendy or they think it's cool to be a "non-smoker"? If it's the right thing to do, there is no wrong reason to do it. Perhaps you have a problem with it because you don't understand how bad animal products really are. Maybe you secretly want to go vegan, but don't know how. Whatever the case, I can help you find the answers.

There is no healthy way to consume unhealthy foods; you can only limit their intake to the point where it causes the least amount of harm. You need to ask yourself if the consumption of these animal foods is really adding anything to your health. In case you were wondering, the answer is no. This should become clear as you keep reading.

The hunter-gatherer populations were not healthy at all, and the populations that still exist today (Eskimos) have the highest incidences of osteoporosis in the world. The cause of osteoporosis is excess animal protein, and their diet consists of 250 to 400 grams of animal protein along with 2,200mg of calcium each day. Even with all of that calcium, their protein consumption keeps them in negative calcium balance. I went into further detail about the hunter-gatherer populations in a previous thread; you should give it a read.
http://hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125861&page=16&pp=10

As for white meat being healthier than red meat, this is completely untrue. Beef and chicken have nearly the same fat and cholesterol content, and all meats have very similar nutritional characteristics because they are virtually the same thing. Numerous studies have shown that people who switch to white meats have no changes in their cholesterol, because they really made no change to the nutritional composition of their foods. Why would it matter if the animal has a hoof, wing or flipper? Their muscle tissues are all made of the same stuff.

Regarding dairy; there is no place for dairy in the human diet. Keep in mind that I'm not talking about human breast milk for human infants. I am talking about animal milk for humans (cows, goats, etc.). People have this belief that people "need" milk for calcium; otherwise we will get osteoporosis and die. The truth is that calcium is a mineral, and like all minerals it is found in the soil; calcium is NOT a dairy product. Minerals like calcium are dissolved in the wet soil and absorbed by the roots of plants. It is then brought up into the stems, leaves, flowers and fruits of these plants, which then supplies us with nutrition. There is plenty of calcium in plant foods, and our need for calcium is not what many believe it to be. To elaborate on what I said before, osteoporosis is a disease of excess animal protein, not calcium deficiency. There has never been a single case of calcium deficiency ever reported in the scientific literature. The countries that have the highest rates of osteoporosis (USA, Sweden, UK, etc.) also consume the most dairy products/animal protein. Their calcium and protein intake is much higher then that of the Chinese who's osteoporosis rates are virtually non-existent.

Plant foods contain more calcium per calorie then dairy, and a cup of cooked greens like kale have just as much calcium as a cup of milk. As further benefit, plants supply calcium without the added dietary fat, cholesterol, acidic proteins, microbes, environmental contaminants and the headache of having to worry about the health risks involved with dairy consumption.

 

i was vegetarian and mostly vegan (when i could help it) for 2 1/2 years and gave the same arguments. i know.

and fucking hell, everything is bad for you even when it's good for you. as
Apples+Oranjes pointed out, there's so much mixed information out there that it's easy to be completely convinced one way or another based on research. i end it, for me, on the fact that most people in the world eat some amount of meat and live with as much unpredictablity regarding heath and life span as they would if they didn't eat meat.

anyway...

i wish i could grow food all year. then i wouldn't need butter or milk to make preserved food not taste like shit. i deffenatly don't have enough money to afford a constant suply of fresh vegitables. you're right, i really would love to have a raw foods vegitarian diet. i've been there. it was a great 2 weeks on the farm.




i have a question for the more moral reasoning vegetarians; how do you handle the "well how do you know plants don't have feelings?" i hated that question so much... beacuse i dont know. i even remember hearing proven studies that some sort of "signal" runs through a plant when it's physically hurt. i don't think that they had a sure explanation for it. ...anyway, so i started thinking that death, eating, living, and death is just the way it goes.

i know i plan to be buried in an organic cemitary when i die so the earth can eat me up right away.

oh, and further, the bacteria colonies you wash away and kill. what about the little bacterium?

 

alright, i give up. i still don't think that a little meat once in a while is more bad for you than a lot of other things we do/eat/drink every day. but i also don't think that that means you should eat it.

and btw, the forum is called "vegetarian" not "pro-vegetarian" or "if-you-have-a-different-opinion-get-the-fuck-out".

my posts have been completely related to vegetarianism.

what do you use forums for? i use them to learn and to explore other peoples' opinions through discussion. if all you do is surround yourself with likeminded people, it's like being in a cave shut out from the world.

 

About the question of what about plants...
I don't argue that at all instead I say, "I have to make a choice or eat both. So, I make a choice and go with the one that can't stare back at me."

There is the option of fruitarian, which apparently lives a totally cruelty free life, even to plants. Except I could never do it. Not to mention I haven't researched enough, and I'm not so sure how healthy that is. Also, you can't wear clothes made of grapes, so technically you're still not being 100% cruelty free [including plants]

Maybe I'm wrong and misinformed, but that's what I think with my little knowledge on the subject.