URGENT COMMENTS NEEDED: The religious significance of circumcision

I can't believe I'm having to do this.

I'm hoping that some kind Jewish folk will respond to this. I am having an argument with a man who claims to be Jewish, about the significance of circumcision in Judaism. I know Rabbis, and have talked with them about it, but this fucking asswipe is denying it. He keeps saying it is purely a "hygiene" thing, and has nothing to do with religion. I gave him this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brit_milah) and he still won't listen.

I am right, ain't I?

 

Yes, I understand that. Good to see progress, I suppose.

Did you leave your son intact?

 

Reb Zalman of Jewish renewal has said that he thinks if a generation goes without circumcising their children, the next generation will mostly drift from Judaism, if that means anything to you. He's a far left progressive.

In Judaism, there are different types of mitzvot. There is one type that is for us to remember something that happened, these are called eduyot, there is one type that is ethical called a mishpat, and there is another that we don't know why we do it called a chok.

I think brit milah is a chok for us today. We don't know why we do it, but it causes us to wrestle with our faith and what it means to be a Jew, and it still connects us with all those past generations who followed this chok. It also connects the future generation.

Dauer

 

Err... right-e-o.

 

There is actually a type of mitzvah that we do that we don't understand why we do it, but we do it anyway. It's called a chok or chukim is the plural. There other two kinds make plenty of sense. We might do something to commemorate something that happened, like on passover, or we might do something because it's moral, like giving tzedakah. But some of them just don't make sense at all, like the laws for keeping kosher. It's a specific type of mitzvah that has been understood throughout the ages. I'm saying that in our time circumcision can be regarded as that type of mitzvah, it's something that doesn't make sense, but that we do it.

And I think I confused what Reb Zalman said a little bit. So I'll try again and hopefully one of them is correct. I think he said that those who aren't circumcising their children, he doesn't think there will be many more generations of them. I don't remember the reason he gave. I think it might be because it's the one thing that all Jewish people have done everywhere, even when it didn't make sense, and it's bonded the people together and helped the next generation to identify even if the one before it didn't.

I'm just providing information. If you ignore it, that's fine. It's your perogative. But it would also be a shame if you only heard what you wanted to hear, right?

Was I clearer this time?

B'shalom.

Dauer

 

http://www.jewsagainstcircumcision.org/ there are jews that are against circumcision

 

I'm going to say something culturally/religiously insensitive. Sorry if I offend, but I want to get right to it.

Why would you continue to do something even if you don't know why you're doing it? Especially when it comes to cutting part of your son's penis off? That seems to be rather insane to me. I wish I'd been left whole...stupid ideas about hygine and that our bodies need modification to be clean and normal...we aren't even Jewish.

 

according to anti-circumcision groups 80% of US males are circumcised

 

Trippin,

ideas like surrender to something greater, taking on a stringency for the sake of self-realization, wrestling with God, finding a connection to ancestral practices, wrestling with the Godness in oneself, come to mind. For some it might be for a sense of belonging to a religio-cultural structure. Some of these apply to circumcision. Some don't. I decided to respond to the general question you gave. I think that most of these issues really come up for the parent and not for the child since the child is too young to even remember. But for the parent, there are many complicated things going on.

some might cry, learning that somewhat universal teaching of letting go, which is the surrender.

There's really a lot going on there.

Dauer

edit: I was thinking about this. As a circumcised Jew I do find that it reminds me of my tradition, of my Jewishness. So I guess beyond the actual ceremony (it's done in the company of friends and family at the home) that there is something that goes on for the child. At least for me.

 

all it reminds me of is a bunch of ignorant fools thinking the penis is dirty and needs to be cut. I'm not talking about Jews here, tho, because at least that has religious signifigance. For us circumsized gentiles, it's just pointless mutilation.

As a sidenote, I figure if God had wanted us sans foreskin, he'd have made us that way. But that's just my opinion.

 

Trippin,

I don't believe in the divine origin of the mitzvot, of the commandments, and many other Jews don't either. So in many cases I don't think this has to do with how God wants us to be. This isn't done to appease God. Personally, I'm a weak agnostic. It has more to do with the power of the ritual itself, as extrapolated in the meanings given in my earlier post and in other ways.

Dauer

 

I could probably think of some rituals that are less mutilating and still just as meaningful, but I guess there's no accounting for tradition.

 

There's really nothing that could take the place of brit milah. There's a power to something so primitive. Tradition is part of it, but there's more than that. Once it's gone, it's gone. Only something similar could replace it, in the same way that eco-kashrut (eco-take on dietery laws and other forms of consumption) can replace kashrut (dietery laws) in personal practice, yet with more kavannah (intentionality).

Dauer

 

You are sick.