Gun trade

fjolnirsson, thanks for a great post.


What I can't figure out is why the other posters, freesmile in particular, seem to regard being peaceful and being willing to fight for one's own life in defense against an attacker as mutually exclusive ideas.

They are not.

I will never in my life go out on the attack against someone unprovoked. I live a peaceful life. I make an "anti-habit" of being belligerent.

But if someone comes after me with the intention of doing me harm, stealing what is mine, or doing my loved ones harm, I will fight him with all of my being.

There is nothing unpeaceful in that.

Just imagine if all the GOOD people in the world resolved, as freesmile, to care so little about preserving and protecting their own lives, that the first person who posed a mortal threat to them simply went unopposed in his acts. Dead good person, right?

Do people like that really care so little about living that they are willing to just capitulate to any evil person who wishes to kill them?

Refusing to contemplate what you would do if a criminal attacked you is irresponsible, and disrespectful to the life that god gave you. Freesmile, you probably think about how you would escape from a burning building, or from a wrecked airliner, or from a sinking boat, but not from a person who wants to kill you? That just seems like a gaping flaw in one's intention to survive to old age.


-Jeffrey

 

again i will point out this is a thread discussing UK guns, where actually it is not a human right to carry a gun, it is illegal! the right to carry a gun isn't in the declaration of human rights, so therefore not a universal right, it is a US thing. i can respect that you want to carry a gun, as long as you do not do it in the UK, as you are breaking our law and culture.

the reason there was an arm race, the reason why there are so many nuclear weapon on the planet is through paranoia, one state thinks others are doing alike, then others states and see actions and do the same.

and i was not discussing getting rid of guns, because i do not live in the US, i was saying that they should be kept illegal. you have to understand that the US citizens have a very different view on arms then much of the world. you can use all these "what ifs" but what if i started carrying a missile as defense (0f course) because i heard on the news there was a threat of a groups blowing places up, and then i see what looks likes a the group ahead and fire away. that is my right?? what is the difference, right?

i somehow think i won't join you shooting, i couldn't imagine even holding a gun, knowing what they were designed for. and i would get no pleasure out of shooting anything, not even paper.

the citizens of the UK are passionate about gun control, after the dumblaien massacre, we got a bill through banning all guns, and there isn't many calls for this to be reppealed. this is not america, we do not have your ideals, we live for one another as a community
peacex

 

is spreading future peace, peaceful? just like in iraq? there is no difference to attacking iraq and the deabte over peacefulness with guns. you ae paranoid, worried about safety, and selfish for not thinking of others, all the reasons for iraq. i believe the citizens of the states have been brought up with this as a right, they could not imagine a world with guns made illegal.

my definitions of peace is obviously very different to yours. i didn't see the 'hippies' of the 60's going out an defending themselves, they peacefully protested and many locked up and beaten up for a better cause, gandi was peaceful, never fought back, that is peace, knowing your ethics arfe intaked for a greater good.

you must realize, that actually maybe you will respect anothers culture, and not try and enforce americanization upon others. we already have way too much american culture here in the UK, from TV, and i also believe that is where our gun/gang culture has suddenly arisen from. stop interfering in the world, live and let live
peacex
peacex

 

Im british and there were protests against the banning of hand guns at least one man a mr luty was willing to go to jail for I think 6 years because he opposed the handgun ban.

what he did to prove what a nonsense banning handguns was , was make a machine gun and publish a book on how to make machine guns with just hand tools files hammers and saws and out of very common bits of metal.

if you look at the sten gun or liberator pistol of world war two these were both made in amatuer workshops in occupied europe how much more easy would it be to make them today , banning things, like making drugs illegal dont make those things go away .


and its only in recent years that carrying weapons as not been part of our culture.

if you go back to the 1900 1800s or 1700 lots of people carried swords pistols, lots of people had guns to defend their homes,before that people had bows shields axes swords having and carrying arms in the uk is far older than not carrying arms.

The man who carried out dunblaine got illegal guns before he bought legal ones he could have killed those children with the illegal guns just the same .

and at the same time as dunblaine there was another lethal attack on a school where the man made his own flame thrower, and another man when crazy with a machete.

as I pointed out earlier its not the number of guns as there were millions of machine guns granades ect ect in peoples homes in world war two, and you never had a case of someone machineguning a load of school children .

you have nearly a million military firearms in peoples homes in switzerland but very low or no gun crime with them .

if you look at the recent british suicide bombers they didnt have legal hand guns or firearms licences lots of the explosives used are made or very common materials things like acetone or peroxide ...banning handguns didnt stop them blowing up a load of people

 

from that post, i have concluded that your arguament is that basically everything might as well be legal, because now matter how deadly, if someone wants to do something they will, wow what a world we live in.

so the guy you mentions, sounds like a nice guy, a book on building machine guns, awesome. the only people in the UK i have met who aer interested in guns, usually are slightly crazy and have anger issues, which doesn't go well together.

we do not live in switzerland, we live in a different culture, we all need to stop comparing cultures, it is illogical, we are not the same people, therefore the same outcome will not arise.

you also cannot compare history with modern britain, it is a different culture. the majority of british people do not wish to own a gun or make it legal, only the few gun nuts, who are desperate for us to be as the US.


peacex

 

You are mistaken. A "human right" (as self defense is a "human right") transcends national boundaries and is the same, and just as valid, all across humanity.

It may not be a legal or civil right in UK, but it certainly is a "human right." Somehow your people have reached a point where they just shrug, and don't care about the loss of one of their inalienable human rights, bound up in social engineering, leftist pacifist philosophy, and bureaucratic capitulation to the criminal class.

A bogus and negligent "declaration" that omits a very important and fundamental right is not the true measure of what constitutes the set of "human rights."

The law, yes, but "breaking our culture"?
Howzat?

Culture does not carry with it the force of law. If the majority of British women are free to come and go as they please, but then you have some muslims living there who subjugate their women culturally, keeping them homebound and in burkas, does that mean they're "breaking your culture" and should adopt your way of life and not follow theirs?

Are you nuts? You take this from a discussion about guns to a discussion about MISSILES, which cannot be used for interpersonal self defense because they kill indiscriminately. And if I saw someone with a hand grenade about to blow up a group of people in a mall, I do not have to use a hand grenade to oppose him. I can still use a gun. If someone has a missile (hey, it's your example...) I can stop him with a gun; I do not need to be carrying a MISSILE of my own!

It's fine to say that you don't think you'd get pleasure out of shooting paper, but what a cowardly attitude regarding not touching them because of "what they were designed for."

Yes, they were designed to kill. And if some evil person is in the process of killing, regardless of the weapon he is using, be it gun, knife, bat, hands and feet... isn't it doing a good work to stop him from murdering? A rational person sees and understands that it makes the most sense to use the most effective tool for that job. In most cases, that is a handgun. It is far and away the most effective implement for self defense. And one must recognise that not all killing is equal. Some killing is done righteously (as in, interpersonal self defense, and see below).

Yes, they were designed to kill. That's their job. But where would the world be if not for people who were willing to hold them and use them IN DEFENSE OF LIFE AND IN DEFENSE OF FREEDOM? People from MY country got off their asses to save the asses of people in YOUR country by using -- guess what -- WEAPONS. If they were so horrible, I guess we should have stayed home and let your country fall to Hitler?

See, there will always be evil people willing to use force to subjugate good, peaceful people.

If good, peaceful people refuse to stand willing to FIGHT (do violence) in defense, they will be made extinct. It's that simple.

"We live for one another as a community"...

What about the community of criminals who are killing and maiming people over there to get their cellular phones? What about the community of people causing your crime rate to rise uncontrollably? I mean, there is more and more talk (as well as action) about arming more and more of your police officers. I just read about a woman cop who was shot and killed while responding -- UNARMED -- to a store where an ARMED ROBBERY was taking place! And an American -- a Texan -- who was a cop here and moved there to England to be a cop recently QUIT in protest, stating that without guns, UK cops are at a severe and deadly disadvantage to the very criminals they are supposed to protect society from.

By the way, it was the "Dunblane Massacre" that triggered the gun ban. I consider it quite irrational to make an entire country live by a draconian law because of a single incident, no matter how horrible. Did we ban all air travel in the U.S. in order to prevent more airplanes from being flown into towers?


-Jeffrey

 

Correction: Gandhi advocated fighting back when there was no other recourse to avoid your own destruction.

It is a moral imperative that good people be willing to fight to survive to continue creating more good in other people -- as in, teaching future generations to live peacefully.

Kind of hard to accomplish that when you have let yourself be eradicated by evil people who have no compunctions about killing those who will not raise a hand to defend themselves.

I hope it does not happen to you, freesmile, but one day you might find yourself up against someone who doesn't give two shits that you are peaceful and happy and kind and sweet and generous and understanding and compassionate. He'll just as soon kill you for your cellular phone. And then who will be left to occupy the world? HIM, and NOT YOU. An EVIL dude, and NOT a GOOD one.

That's your choice?!

-Jeffrey

 

a human right to own a gun?? are you kidding me, this is the problem, the citizens of the US have become convinced of that, have you actual read the universal declaration of human rights. in other words you have interpreted a state issue to accept your own common belief. a gun is not a human right, full stop. whoever taught you that it was was very very mistaken. in the US it was a right, to defend your nation in time of war when there was no military initially.

yes breaking our culture, the culture in the UK is a culture of mixed beliefs from around the world coming together. it doesn't have a 'british' per say culture. especially in the cities. but if you ask the majority of britains about guns, many would have the same belief, that we do not want them here. we do not want the outstanding death rate because of fire arms there is in the US. every year there is a campaign in the city i was from to collect illegal guns for trade by the police, because the publc want them off the streets.

here in the UK very few police carry guns, and i love that about this nation. the majority do not want all police armed. trust me the UK has different values to the US.

i was using a 'missile' in such a way i thought you would get the picture that was describing the international system of states. i did it metaphorically, but to clarify, the international system is a present a pretty anarchical sense because of the arms trade and arm races. and compare this on a smaller scale it has the same affect.

you call call me a coward, i really do not care about that. i can't imagine ever touching a gun, either could i other weapons that were designed specifically for killing. i hate any type of use of arms. why do you shoot paper, is it a naturally thing to want to shoot???? what is that about?

rational!! are you kidding, rationality must change across the pond then, no wait, i have spoken to many americans who hate guns, and do not believe as you do,. it is also easy in a war situation to blow the hell out of the enemy, doesn't mean it should happen, why don't we just nuke everyone that we disagree with, because we have morals, ethics and standards.

yes there was one incident where an unarmed police woman was shot, but get this, they actually concluded that if she had a gun on her, she still would of died, they didn't threaten her first, so when you find the one major police shooting at present, please read up on it.

and actually many american police officers, ahve came to the UK to discuss the issue, and they raised these on national radio and TV, and many concluded it was a good thing that many of our police were unarmed, and actually it was found that the majority of the police do not want to be armed!! shocking huh, not wanting a gun.

no you didn't air travel, you went to war with two nations and changed your laws because of it.
peacex

 

who do you honestly believe ghandi would be on the side of here. ghandi wasn't referring to the everyday occurances you describe. he was describing situations where whole races/societies were at risk. not when a material item you oh so love was under risk.

so what do you suggest, killing all the 'evil' people, sounds very familiar to a president you have.

yes that is my choice, next time i go out, i will try and start judging who is evil and not, split my town into who is evil and who is not. oh wait, i am pretty sure that in the town i currently live in there is not one gun because it is illegal and no one here wants to change it and live like america. not everybody believe it or not likes the american lifestyle, many detest it
peacex

 

Don't be an idiot. The kind of "evil" people I am talking about are the kind who will seek you out to do you harm -- be it to rob you, rape you, kill you. I'm not talking about you acting like some sort of judgment angel, I'm talking about knowing it when you see it -- and that's not hard to do.


-Jeffrey