Is it globalization or westanization?

Do you believe the current phenomonum that is globalization in much of the world, is actually the coming together of cultures, or the spread of western values?
is it a expected consequence when much of the world sees democracy and freedom as the way to go, so therefore inevitable that it is the west that developing nations thrive towards?
or is it the multinational companies pushing a corporate identity and culture on others?
also, is this a good thing, bad thing or a bit of both?
peacex

 

Both, it is the coming together of cultures in a western setting.

well yes. It helps that the West has all the money..the rest of the world wants the money, so they'll emulate those who have it.

I dont think so.

For example, Most(if not all) McDonalds in India dont sell beef. It is not profitable for McDonalds to try and convince Indians to eat beef, instead they offer what Indians want.

Globalization is mostly good imo, but can be bad. I think a lot of people see it as destroying other cultures, but i see it as others cultures adapting. Every culture is constantly adapting, constantly being destroyed if you will.

English is becoming more and more the 'global language.' This is good in my opinion. Far too long has language divided people. However, more people are learning Russian, Chinese, Arabic etc outside of their mainlands than at any other point in history. So while English is becoming more 'dominant' it isnt destroying other languages per se.

I dont know, thats a lot of rambling...there are lots of cons and pros i'm sure.

 

thank you for responding
isn't the fact that there is a mcdonalds in the first place could be enforced culture. and pretty much you can find coca cola anywhere in the world. i think the decision we have to make is whether we want the world to all be the same. me personally do not like going abroad and seeing all the corporations i have back home. although i do not shop in them here anyway, but i went to see a different culture.

yeah, culture is been adapted, but i was wondering that was this such a good thing, culture always come and go, but many now are leading towards the same culture. it has been described as a type of culture imperialism, spread by multinational corps.

i do not see the spread of english as been entirely good, unless those who speak english as their first language also learn to speak others. i think a language makes up a culture, and wouldn't ever want to force them to speak away from their past.

i think globalization also has pros and cons, we can learn from one another, gather compassion for others around the globe. but also economically and culturally it could go hugely wrong. i like the belief of all humans as one, but we are all different and need to respect that and not become clones.
peacex

 

I think its westernisation for sure. This is from a sort of phlisophical standpoint, but could a movement which ultimately aims for the people of the world all living in more similar or the same ways be harmful for the development of the human race. I said this in another thread but the best way to explain is that the planet and the human race is currently in deep trouble, with current systems not working. If we were all living in different ways and experimenting with new ways of living, wouldn't our creativity be much greater, as well as our chance of survival. If you understand the concepts of evolution you'll know what i mean

P.S. i think free trade doesn't work because it is poorly regulated and it assumes greedy people aren't going to take advantage of the "unfair competition"

 

i agree with you, i believe we do need different cultures, but at the same time, come together and share ideas, but not enforce culture. at present i can see some cultures changing because of globalization, some states such as Bhupal i believe are doing all they can to keep their culture, they only allow a certain amount of tourist and keep the prices very very high, even though they are quite a poor nation, all to hold onto their culture.

free trade looks good on paper, but doesn't work in the real world, because of the human nature to be selfish, what we need is compassion and fair trade
epacex

 

No, the very fact that there is a McDonalds doesn't show a forced culture. Yes, you can find coca cola anywhere in the world. NO one forces you to buy it though. No one forces people to wear jeans, buy coke, watch american movies(fit in all western products here). Sure, i go to places abroad and i end up thinking they're their just different American states because everything i see is American. I'm not exactly a fan of that, but maybe its because they WANT American/western culture and not because we forced it on them. I dont see how setting up a McDonalds forces our culture on them. Does having a chinese restaurant in London force chinese culture on the english?

We've always been leading towards the same culture. As time goes on(for thousands of years now) our cultures are become more and more similar. Remember the Hellenization of the Med. world? Same thing.

I dont see how multinational corps force anything. If Chinese prefer American culture to Chinese, whats wrong with that? Should we force someone to like their own culture more?

Language has divided people for thousands of years. God knows how many wars have been fought over language.

Do you believe that British and americans are clones? I dont think we will become clones of each other.

 

No, the very fact that there is a McDonalds doesn't show a forced culture. Yes, you can find coca cola anywhere in the world. NO one forces you to buy it though. No one forces people to wear jeans, buy coke, watch american movies(fit in all western products here). Sure, i go to places abroad and i end up thinking they're their just different American states because everything i see is American. I'm not exactly a fan of that, but maybe its because they WANT American/western culture and not because we forced it on them. I dont see how setting up a McDonalds forces our culture on them. Does having a chinese restaurant in London force chinese culture on the english?

but the fact that they are popular saddens me, i love going abroad and seeing shops and stuff we do not have back home. alas its a raraty. the problem is that we do not have culture just because of food, but in the developing world, they seem to have all our culture, and you can see it in the youth, it is having an affect, even in nations such as Iran, american culture is growing amognst teenagers especially.

We've always been leading towards the same culture. As time goes on(for thousands of years now) our cultures are become more and more similar. Remember the Hellenization of the Med. world? Same thing.

in the past it was forced culture through imperialism, this is a hidden form of the same thing. just because it looks inevitable does not mean we should accept it, but this at present is bigger then the past, it involves most of the planet.

I dont see how multinational corps force anything. If Chinese prefer American culture to Chinese, whats wrong with that? Should we force someone to like their own culture more?

because human brains are impressionable, especially the youth, that is why multinational corps target schools and teenagers. its not really total freedom to choose when it is forced on you by everything around you. they do not also, prefer american culture, this thing could the free market and globalizations means it is very hard to stop these corp setting up shop, especiallty as they are a lot richer and can afford it, without thinking ot caring for the long term consequences

Language has divided people for thousands of years. God knows how many wars have been fought over language.

wars have been fought over religion, doesn't mean we should wipe out all religions but one does it?

Do you believe that British and americans are clones? I dont think we will become clones of each other

in my eyes we are way too similar, we are not exactely the same, but it is hard to distinguish some features now, only politically with americans been more conservative i can notice. our culture is very very similar, the clothes we wear, the music we listen to, the tv we watch. i do not want the world to end up as so
peacex

 

I guess i'm different. I like seeing that my culture is popular around the world. It makes me think we're doing something right.

Do you believe that cultures should be stagnant and not change?

I dont think there is any hidden secret agenda here. I think it is happening as a side effect to free trade and easier communications.

What should we do, mandate that no one except americans can watch american movies so no one else is influenced by them?

Yeah, all the kids in third world nations who wear jeans/baseball caps...speak english, know American comic book heroes, movie stars, musicians dont prefer american culture...

Should we stop multinatioanl corps from setting up shop overseas? Should only americans be able to buy/wear nike? Should only Americans wear Jeans/baseball hats? Should only Americans make rock n roll music?

Didnt say we should. I just want there to be more communication.

The world we live in almost forces us into a western culture. It is pretty much impossible to live a "native" type lifestyle anymore.

I guess my question is..what do you propose to stop all this?

 

Cultures are living things that grow and change. Cultures have always changed in response to contact with other cultures.

McDonald's and Coca-Cola and other Western corporations make money overseas because they are good at adapting their products and advertising to different cultures or markets around the world.

Particularly in larger cities in the USA, there are plenty of restaurants serving foods associated with other countries and cultures. Admittedly, many of these restaurants have adapted their menu to appeal more to Western tastes, but McDonald's and other chains have done so to some extent as well.

If you don't like the way American/Western culture is gaining in prominence, seek out alternatives. Eat in restaurants that serve food from other parts of the world. Watch movies that don't come from Hollywood. Read books in translation by foreign authors; better yet, learn foreign languages and enjoy these books in the original languages.

I'll be the first to admit that these suggestions are easier in some places than others. However, the Internet makes it possible for many of us to do some of these things.

 

i do take these suggestions, i do shop in alternative, fair trade shops, i do not watch TV anymore, i do all these, but i do find it sad, whether it enivatable or not that small villages and town here in the UK and around the world, are been taken over by american chain stores because they have more money. its not like the citizens of this town made the choice.

i currently am living in a small town in the UK, which has reached half way now of americanization of the shops. its a beautiful town and i hear so many complaints from especially the elderly that town such as this town are been ruined and beauty taken away. i am not saying these things are not enivatable, i was giving my opinion on why i do not find this aspect of glabalization appealing
peacex

 

I guess i'm different. I like seeing that my culture is popular around the world. It makes me think we're doing something right.

don't get me wrong, i used to love american culture untill i realized what it was doing to small town UK and other small towns around the globe. all our town centres look the same now, and all i hear is complaints about this, but nothing is done.

Do you believe that cultures should be stagnant and not change?
I dont think there is any hidden secret agenda here. I think it is happening as a side effect to free trade and easier communications.

i didn't say there was a hidden agenda, americanization is spread because the US have at present the most money and the most power. yes it is an effect of free trade, which is why i have quite a dislike towards free trade, i think it has totally been abused.

What should we do, mandate that no one except americans can watch american movies so no one else is influenced by them?

we can't do anything apart from change civil societies around the globe. i believe on the aspects of multinational corps, things can be done and small towns protected.

Should we stop multinatioanl corps from setting up shop overseas? Should only americans be able to buy/wear nike? Should only Americans wear Jeans/baseball hats? Should only Americans make rock n roll music?

in my opinion yes we should stop these multinational corps from setting up, some nations already do so. but in some states this isn't done because people do not think these multinational corps are good in the short run financially but bad in the long run.

I guess my question is..what do you propose to stop all this?

now i could right you an essay for this, but i will keep it short. to stop these affects, we must retake the hearts and minds of civil society by educating them of the long term affects of such globalization socially. states and local authorites must have power to prevent things that are damaging in the long run. regional traditions must be kept by the state and the society been proud of their traditions and continuing them. local businesses must be thrived towards. we shouldn't want our products from labor shops abroad said products are fair trade produce.
in conclusion, civil society must learn to love its own culture and stop following what they see on TV
peacex

 

Im not sure if it is to the topic, but I think globalization is more a.. supression of national identity than cultural unity.. I judge bec. of some conditions that were accepted for some countries (middle Europe, Estonia, Litvia,Lotyss - oops I can't spell that) in may. My main concern is the amount of control EU has over all the new members who still aspire. But at the other hand they couldn't do without, EU is investing billions into their development, and this counion brings lots of new industry, a chance to be competitive. At the other hand I find it kind of an identity loss, although inevitable.As to the language, more and more people won't find jobs as (etc. lawyers) without at least one foreign language - which is great, as it makes everyone more sophisticated, just lets me wonder if we ever find other languages attractive.
Similarly I find NATO an organization that puts a lot of pressure on all the nations to join (just imagine who would protect you if you didn't type of speech) which leaves no option of being neutral towards any armed conflict

 

yeah many supranational organization do have a lot of centralized power usually by one or a few main members. it does of course have advantages and disadvantages, but i think we need to try our best to try and redice the advantages, such as preserving culture. it makes me wonder how the theory may not match the actual reality.
peacex

edit- i believe the EU is the same model as globalization is having on the whole world.

 

I think this is the real problem. American culture ISNT doing it to small town uk. YOU are. The people who live in small town UK are opting for American(or whatever) culture over your own. You cant blame the corporations or America because you have to wear Jeans or buy food in a supermarket. Remember, it was you(general sense) who bought food in the supermarkets that have put butchers/bakers out of business, NOT america.

How has it been abused, exactly?

such as?

Dont you think thats rather totalitarian? How about this. America created computers and the internet. Should we be the only ones allowed to use em? If so, you might want to log off and never use it again.

Dont you think thats a little ludicrous?

You are basically calling for the stagnation of culture. Do you believe slavery is a tradition that should be kept in parts of africa? Female circumcision? Should certain parts of the Islamic/african world be allowed to supress women because its their tradition and culture?

I dont see how we can better ourselves with your proposals...

 

I think this is the real problem. American culture ISNT doing it to small town uk. YOU are. The people who live in small town UK are opting for American(or whatever) culture over your own. You cant blame the corporations or America because you have to wear Jeans or buy food in a supermarket. Remember, it was you(general sense) who bought food in the supermarkets that have put butchers/bakers out of business, NOT america.

no actually, we are citizens do not choose what shops appear, do you vote for what companies open up. and actually many shopping centres are owned by american companies and rented out to america corps. i know it is us who are purchasing said products, but that is because many people see no choice, small local shops are been closed down, and prices are cheaper in these supermarkets, even though they do huge damage in the long term, so yes actually it does come down to the corps not the people. and do not blame me personally, i do not shop in these shops, i onlu buy fair trade and from charity shops.

How has it been abused, exactly?

it has been hugely abused, do you actually think the system of free trade is working, yes it works in the US and the west but not the developing world, it is the rich corporations that is screwing over others, such as third world sweat shops, free trade is not working as it just gives the current wealthy a chance to abuse the poor so they can get richer, please tell me you can see this.

such as?

maybe by having stronger laws where the local citizens have more power to what happens in thier community, y'know like what they founders of the US wanted. local power over national and business power. maybe higher taxes for corporation who may ruin the local economy.

Dont you think thats rather totalitarian? How about this. America created computers and the internet. Should we be the only ones allowed to use em? If so, you might want to log off and never use it again.

the internet is not ruining local economy, are you not reading what i am saying, the internet is not a shop. please do not use ideas like this which clearly have no point.

Dont you think thats a little ludicrous?

erm no i think your ideals are a little ludicrous, have you ever stepped outside the US, and seen what effects are happening?

You are basically calling for the stagnation of culture. Do you believe slavery is a tradition that should be kept in parts of africa? Female circumcision? Should certain parts of the Islamic/african world be allowed to supress women because its their tradition and culture?

no i am not, culture changes, but it seems all cultures are going the same way. please do not use pathetic examples to make your arguament seem stronger then it is. you know exactely what i was saying. i am not sure if you actually have news from around the world, but look at the bhupal present condition this week in the news to see the effect you are saying

I dont see how we can better ourselves with your proposals..

because you live in america!!! please if you havn't go elsewhere in the world, go talk to people, go see the effects your culture has. i do not believe americanization is bettering ourself in the long term, it could eventually ruin this planet.
peacex

 

Um, why do you think little shops went out of business? Because people bought stuff for cheaper in supermarkets/malls/non speciality stores.

Supermarkets do not just buy up every bakery, butcher shop etc in town and then replace them with a monster supermarket. They setup shop andeveryone in town goes to them instead and THEN the butcher shops/bakers go out of business because people opted to go to the supermarket. So yes, it is the peoples fault in many instances.

Now free trade is coming around to bite us in the ass because so many jobs are being shipped overseas. So, should we demand that no business can take jobs overseas..thus removing ANY chance 3rd world nations have of improving their status?

countries WANT big corporations to come into their country and do business. Do you think 3rd world nations are being pressured into allowing ibm/nike and others to setup shop there? You make it sound like we are forcing it on them. That is NOT the case.

I dont think its an overstatement to say that the Internet is largest tool Westernizing third world nations today. I dont see how you consider that irrelevant when we're talking about destroying local cultures. The internet is a tool of globalization. It is westernizing the third world. My statement stands.

I've lived outside of America(Hong Kong) and traveled much more than your average westerner. Have you?

All the examples i gave above are showing the westernization of cultures. For them to make those concessions IS them conforming to western ideals.

Now, for all cultures going the same way? I've said this before. Cultures constantly adapt when they come in contact with other ones. It is natural.

As i said before, chances are i'm more well traveled than you are. So please dont lecture me on going outside of America.


I just dont see it. While this americanization is happening more cultures are getting a chance to be exposed to the world..more cuisines, more music, more art, more EVERYTHING is being exposed. They arent being destroyed

 

I think there is an attitude in this thread (except for freesmile and chocolate chip cookie) of our western culture as the ultimate and natural way for humans to live, to quote megara:

This might be true as far as ONLY the western world is concerned, but its not a good thing and I think its sad that people accept it.

Ok, you're absolutely right in saying we don't have to eat mcdonalds and we don't have to drink coke and so on and so on, but that doesn't stop everyone else. Somehow, westernisation (i'm guessing through advertising and the push of materialism) is able to persuade large majorities of people buy things they don't need (in order to fulfil the emptiness in their lives which is not adressed by our culture) and eat disgusting food which has utterly no nutritional value and is produced by a company which has little regard for human and environmental values.

Also I must also point out that we ULTIMATELY have no choices living in a western democracy. We are owned by our nationality, unless we can live somewhere else, and we have the same government deciding all our rules for us, and even if we have choices, we have to put up with an ignorant majority (just one example, George Bush voted in not once kids, but TWICE!!!).

The best way to show how western culture stifles our freedom is to go back to the beginning. Hunter Gatherers were able to live in highly successful communities, sometimes not working for more than two hours a day to produce their food, which gave them ample time to raise their children and care for the disabled, sick and elderly as well as leisure and spiritual time. At different points in time, some hunter gatherer groups, for example American indians, invented agricultural methods which allowed people to cultivate the land, ie. make it produce exactly the food people ate, and in this way they were able to increase their population. Even though they had less leisure time, there were no wealthy or poor, no one owned people or land, and the "natural social security" was still in place. Then came civilisation, men realised that they could have ownership of the land. A system came about where the wealthy, or ruling class, could own particular areas of land and force peasants or labourers to work longer hours producing food. The way they could do this is lock up the food in granaries etc. They could stop peasants from revolting by having a military forces which they gave extra food. By having a certain group of people producing food for everyone else, this gave time for people like blacksmiths to develop superior technology and for merchants to trade and tinkle in money matters. The excess of food also meant greater population growth. All these factors enabled civilisations to force hunter gatherer communites (with smaller populations and superior technology) to give up their land and work under their rule. A recent example of this is the American and Australian Aborgines whom both fought in civil wars against the invaders of their lands because many would have rather died than given up their peaceful and spiritually fulfilling way of living. They were defeated because the western invaders had greater populations and superior technology

Ok, I'm not saying we should all revert back to being hunter gatherers, but i'm trying to point out that we ultimately have no choices because today ourselves and the land is still owned and our food is locked up and we have to work for it. I hope somebody understands what i'm talking about, i know this is a very extreme way of thinking.

Anyway, I could go on for years pointing out the faults of western civilisation. But to think that its spread into every corner of the globe and to think that people truly want to live that way is sad. The only reason people wan't to live this way is because they don't know any other way.

 

Um, why do you think little shops went out of business? Because people bought stuff for cheaper in supermarkets/malls/non speciality stores.

ermm yeah because the stuff was cheaper, and that is unfortuantely the main concern with mainy consumers, not what affect will this have on my community.the only reason it is cheaper is because much of the products are not ethically produced nor locally produced.

Supermarkets do not just buy up every bakery, butcher shop etc in town and then replace them with a monster supermarket. They setup shop andeveryone in town goes to them instead and THEN the butcher shops/bakers go out of business because people opted to go to the supermarket. So yes, it is the peoples fault in many instances.

actually it is the capitalist way of thinking of everybody wanting cheaper produce at a cost to their community as i said above. do you believe it is okay for said supermarkets which gets many of its items unethically and not locally to go and open up in a small poor community, and eventually destroying local produce.

Now free trade is coming around to bite us in the ass because so many jobs are being shipped overseas. So, should we demand that no business can take jobs overseas..thus removing ANY chance 3rd world nations have of improving their status?

actually you are quite off the mark on this point. read up of the effect of these jobs to the developing nations and gain their perspective, it gets jobs in the short term, but low pay jobs which actually cause damage to the local economy in the long run. think about it, if a sweatshop opens and hires lots of people, including children, what chance does that community have of moving on and developing on their own. please do not believe that jobs abroad means they are better off.

countries WANT big corporations to come into their country and do business. Do you think 3rd world nations are being pressured into allowing ibm/nike and others to setup shop there? You make it sound like we are forcing it on them. That is NOT the case.

states do because they think in the long term, normal citizens and long term thinkers see the deestating affect of this. and actually yes nike are pressuring other nations, have you read the reports on nike. so yes they are forcing these corp on others. why do you have such a naive view of these corporations, they are there to make as much money as possible as whoevers expense.

As i said before, chances are i'm more well traveled than you are. So please dont lecture me on going outside of America.

so did you speak to the people of the places you have been? did you ask what would be best for their community. please elaborate on this. because of all the places i have been and the people i have spoke to, believe and say the same thing. and on my course i am studying at present (international relations) we have students from all over the globe who all (i have spoken too, heard speeches by) believe the same way that this globalization by corporations is having a long term damaging affect

I just dont see it. While this americanization is happening more cultures are getting a chance to be exposed to the world..more cuisines, more music, more art, more EVERYTHING is being exposed. They arent being destroyed

no it is mainly american culture that is been exposed. could it be that you live in the states and do not see the consequences that are happening, as i said before, look at the Bhupal incident this week, look at the concern of what is happening, and tell me everything is fine.
peacex

 

I dont know if i would say ultimate or natural. Best, yes i'd argue that. To date at least.

Democracy is not a good thing? Human rights are not a good thing? That is western culture. Or do you mean materialism? Well, thats debatable i guess.

Again, blaming someone else. You say "no they arent forcing us..." but they "persuade large majorities.." Thats putting the blame on someone else.

Not sure what this has to do with the thread...

Wow, i'm speechless. If that is not the most revionistic, apologetic bit of history i've ever read. I thought the Romantic period was the 19th century.

American indians peaceful? My god. You forget that the Iroquois basically went genocidal on the Huron..that the Iroquois wiped out everyone in their path to control the eastern part of the United States. They were peaceful? My god, they were some of the most militaristic people on earth.

You, sir, are definitely in need of some reading.

extreme to say the least. Sure, i have a romantic side in me where i think things would be nice to live off the land, but thats impossible. Not because of Westernization(civilization if you want), but because of massive populations.

There are lots of downsides to western civilization. I, however, know of nothing better.

You want to be a hunter gather? I really doubt you do. Give up everything western civilization has provided(virtually all medicines now adays among other things). I bet you'd get two days into a toothache before running for a dentist.

 

Remember that outsourcing is a relatively new phenomenom. Supermarkets predate them. Who decides what is ethical? Communists will say that any division of labor is unethical. Do you mean child labor? sure i'd agree with that. There are statutes preventing that i believe. Sweatshops? They're illegal in this country. Overseas? Well if China only mandates that minimum wage is like 80 bucks a month, what can we do? Demand our companies pay them the US/Uk minimum wage?

I dont believe supermarkets get all their food from unethical places.

As for locally? Where do you suggest supermarkets in New York City or London buy their produce from? Central park?

Sure, have any great sources for me to read on this?

The choice for many people in places like India and China are Work for a Western Company or starve/steal to live. Not much of a choice

You still havent shown how a corporation can force itself on someone. I MIGHT buy a supermarket, but with nike? C'mon! Nike isnt going to put out the local cobbler. These shoes get shipped overseas for a huge profit. In many places, Nikes/Jeans etc are products that the poor kids aspire to owning..

What is the devestating effect that you see?

I dont speak things like Cambodian or Hindi etc, so no i dont go around and talk to your average person. Most people i tal to overseas in poor countries go on about Hollywood movies or the New York Yankees etc..Most of them dont have anything bad to say. I spend most of the time in the cities and not out in the rural villages, so it is the big western corporations that WILL help them.

bhopal incidient? The chemical disaster 21 years ago? Or is there something new?