god the schizzo

why is that in the bible at times you'll read about this great warm loving compassionate god then in the next chapter your reading about a pissed off god who's all about punishing people for thier little infractions, its like he's a schizzo or bipolar or something...it almost seems like they're talking about two different gods

 

sounds more to me like what an ego would do if it were given total power. On good days, you're nice and help others out, either because they're friends or because it makes you look good. But on bad days, watch out! Because the brimstone and fire will fall, and you might just drown every living thing on your planet.

At any rate, it just sounds like your average human given god-status. Like a king but worse.

 

Well this is hardly worth replying to but a few things:
- There are often huge spans of time between the various passages you are reading from entirely different people, eras and circumstances.
I realise that most people today actually demand the Bible be presented to them in a 'movie script' or 'novel' type format. Its not. It often just goes to the next signifigant event (even if its 200 years later). Thats how it rolled with them.

- I suggest that you are bipolar or something and have greatly exaggerated your impressions.

- A lot of parents would strongly suggest that discipline is an act of love and caring. Slapping your childs hand away from the stove burner and a second later hugging them and telling them you care about them might be considered 'totally 'schizzo' behavior to you but is actually very consistant for them.

- The God of the Bible allows free-will and responds to peoples behavior. Humanity in general can be very 'schizzo' and there explains a lot of the reactions you get.
Im sure God would have prefered Soddom and Gommorah were about to receive blessing but since they chose horrific evil instead - here comes the angry OT punishments.
Dig

 

The so-called "god" of the bible is really from a superior race of beings that exploited earth's mineral wealth, mostly gold. So as to reduce the harsh physical demands upon themselcves, they gene-spliced animals and then the two types of human, the first Genesis 1:26-28 made in god's own image (gene-splice), and the second in Genesis 2:7 made from the dust of the ground (genetically engineered).
That's why the biblical "god" has such humanly dualistic characteristics ~ because he is like us as we are like him ~ human.

 

It takes more than a sunny smile to make people happy.

 

slapping a child on the hand and sending someone to an eternity of hellfire is a bit different to me...where's your hug after serving your time in hell? and secondly where's your second chance after hell? the child wasn't being slapped on the hand for eternity, he got to go on and learn from that mistake

 

If your child is grown up now and decides to go jump in a lake of fire with all knowledge and forethought - then its not the parents fault is it?

 

that analogy fails, because the parent doesn't have the power to stop it, didn't create the lake of fire, nor the conditions upon which one might go there or not. It basically comes off as God having an "oh fuckin' well, if you want to burn, then burn, see if I care" attitude. Even though he could stop your torment, he doesn't.

Also, one never has all knowledge or forethought. This Judeo-Christian God theory is just one of thousands. How can a person know for sure whether this is the true god or the true path? You can't, it's based on faith, which is certainly not knowledge (it's trust in the absence of knowledge). So God is basically burning us for eternity because of built-in ignorance in regards to these questions. That's insane.

 

That is insane man! lol hahaha
I agree if that were the case but is that God in any sense of the word?
no, thats not the God I see at all, not the Jesus I know. It is a dark path if you are just following a book blindly and not using the Spirit. I think it would be better to drop the faith at this point a person will do so much harm to themselves and others. Just go..do anything else, its b/c black, seeing Christ through a Glass Darkly and thats not good.
Faith is faith, not knowledge and all is opinion but I don't see lakes of fire or torment with Jesus. Revelations are idiotic to the point its almost so bad its good, a Plan 9 kinda deal. My faith just tells me there is a Jesus, I know my faith and it doesn't include this insanity
God bless
peace

 

I like TMB just writing the words 'The Analogy Fails' and then 'demonstrates how' by a whole wierd gaggle of 'what ifs' and assertations with attached non-conclusions and speculations.

If you are going to start with the premise of the Judeo Christian God and eternal damnation then STICK WITH IT.
You are starting a proposition in a "What if this Judeo Christian God exists and we were to go by His Scriptures .. then WHAT IF?"
OK.
Then stick within the premise here.

Then you most definately have a situation better than anything you can ever ask for - forgiveness of all sins and redemption available to everyone.
You cant ask for better than that.
Its the ultimate get out of jail free and there is no more condemnation.

Now.. You are surely going to ask/say something about how there is still a 'Hell' or eternal damnation in YOUR and Mines Premise.
Without getting into a huge run of scriptures I can tell you what every scholar finds obvious: The ONLY people who are in eternal darkness are those who CHOOSE to reject the 'free pass'.

Now how can you possibly have a problem with that?
How do you figure the analogy fails?
Heck.. I was BARELY even making an 'Analogy' since that pretty much IS exactly how anyone can possibly end up in Hell.

(remember.. YOU are asking we suppose this based on our premise of 'what if' the Judeo Christian God exists here).

There is no problem here and you honestly could not ask for a more ideal situation.
Sure, God could simply remove the option to choose and reject of accept.
You REALLY want that TBM?
No you dont.
That would effectively reduce you and everyone else to actually a mockery of Free Will. Who cares about redemption, forgiveness and eternal life when you cant even reject it anyways.

But in anycase, IF you want to say "what if the Bible is to be taken here.. what then puts you in hell?"
Then you have your answer and its stands just fine thanks.

 

And therein lies the problem; because the "free pass" is faith in Jesus. But I cannot choose to believe in Jesus if I already don't. I can no more make myself believe in him than I can make myself believe in the truth and literal veracity of Homer's Oddysey. Belief is spontaneous, and I can't MAKE it hapen. One doensn't choose their beliefs, as one only believes in things they FEEL to be true. It's not a thing of the mind/intellect, it's a matter of the heart.

Now...you are right in that if I start out with the premise that the JudeoChristian God exists, things are easier. Your argument makes sense... for Christians. But what about everyone else? Why should a Hindu accept this premise (of the Fall and later Redemption of man)? Because he is the one most at risk for going to hell, right? Moreso than me, living in western society and having been raised catholic. Looking at the many religions we have, what reason do I have to select and believe in your set of scriptures above everyone else's scriptures and/or beliefs?

At best the answer is faith, which again, is spontaneous and honest, not forced or intellectualized (I can weave many arguments trying to prove Jesus but if I don't feel it to be true in my heart, what value is it?)

 

That's right...faith cannot be forced.

So, Christians, if we only have one life to live, and we're all supposed to accept Jesus Christ or go to hell, why did God create an infinite variety of human beings in an infinite variety of national, racial, health, intelligence, economic, and religious circumstances, some here in the USA in Bible-believing, prophecy-watching families, others as Hindus or Muslims or Buddhists, and so on?

I'll leave out the question of pre-disposition to certain sexual or behavioral tendencies, just to make it more clear-cut and easier.

In other words, there are going to be many people who are pre-inclined to become Christians, and many more who are not. If you accept that God personally creates each human being, then why did he create them as he did and continue to follow this pattern of creation?

Please use clear Biblical references as evidence for all of your answers. Do not quote scholarly opinions, offer your own opinion without reference to the Bible, or use metaphorical references.

 

Ok.
Again we create a senseless discussion if we are going to start with a 'what if' scenario in which we suppose the Christian scriptures are the real thing and we 'go by them' for the sake of the discussion.
All agreed?

IF we suppose that Jesus is the Messiah and Eternal Separation exists and there is now no more condemnation but all are forgiven and so on...
... How then (under our premise now) does anyone end up eternally separated. This is what Christians mean by 'Hell'.
The answer was already given but since it was implied I guess we should revisit this:
The only people who are going to be in Hell are those who reject the forgiveness available to them.
Now that implies they must have been aware of this in the first place.
So this brings us to a situation that I dont think anyone can possibly object to where you have someone who is aware that salvation is there for them, are aware its being held out to them with their name on it already.. who knows its necessary to take.. but ultimately and of their own free will rejects it.
Well ok.. in our scenario, God will not put a spell on them which makes their mind change.
No way.
If that was done then we are not free willed beings and there is no choice and so we might as well be computer programs.
I like how some scholars have 'put it in a theological nutshell' when they say that, according to the scriptures it will be a situation where nobody in Hell will be surprised and not a single person will object.
If you think about it - that is where our premise ends up.
IF we are still sticking with our original premise of asking 'what if the Bible has it right?"

There is some reference to those who live outside the knowledge of salvation and it puts it in the frame of 'having light'.
They will be judged by how they responded to the light they had anyways.
There is simply no way for us to speculate on this other than to say that 'IF' we are still sticking to our premise here then we are also still dealing with a 'perfectly just' God.
Omnicient and Just God is not going to be making some mistake here and ultimately you get the same conclusion of people who fail to make the grade will certainly know they did and why and wont be surprised.
Its not like antichristians want you to believe that some Hindu Farmer would be burning in hell crying out that 'he didn't know' and all this.
If the Hindu farmer guy honestly does not know Jesus hands out salvation and all along he was doing the best he could do with what he had - then surely he will be judged accordingly.

Outside of our premise and back to the world in which we live - I have to believe that if you were to be sitting there wondering 'who to believe' you really cannot lose by appealing to God and asking for maximum light.
You have to figure, Ive read about full-on atheists who actually agreed with that.
The idea being that 'IF' there is a God then sincerely asking that in a prayer is actually a logical and perfectly acceptable thing to do.
Actually you can make a good argument that is a perfectly valid test which you would do.
IF there is no God then you havent done a single thing other than ask a sincere question out loud.
So what.
IF there is this God .. well then maybe you DO get some evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.
If you ask me, the real reason a lot of people will not find Gods plan in this life is because, underneath it all.. they dont want to.
They would rather do something else.
Its almost like a very elaborate pretension of 'playing dumb'.
I personally believe that in my own life I really do know deep down that I have another level to go and its there for me... but.. Im really just 'stalling' it.
Now I would tell myself "Hmm.. i just dont feel like Im at that place yet" but really I bet you Im actually stalling and 'playing dumb' because I really know its gonna require some discipline and probably a new level of emotional and intellectual effort.
So its a good thing I dont count on myself to earn my enlightenment and salvation or I suppose Im sitting in separation too and I really would not be surprised or able to have a straight face in denying why I was either.

ps.. The crap about all these poor innocent people being sent to a horrific eternal torture and stabbed by devils is a secular and non-christian idea or is just something popularised in artistic renditions etc.
AntiChristians LOVE using that as propaganda to make Jesus 'feel like' a sick torture loving serial killer.
It works really well on people to as a propaganda tool.
Heads up!

 

Erasmus, I'm assuming you're addressing everyone here, and not just post #12, which I wrote...correct?

 

Ok, but the only people who believe Jesus is the messiah are Christians! They ALREADY have faith in Jesus. So the rest of YOUR argument is the senseless one; OF COURSE a Christian who rejects Jesus (rather contradictory statement...) will go to the Hell (if the bible is right).

My point is everyone else, who don't start out with your Christian premise, should not go to hell, even if they know about this theory, and that any God that does so is evil (and, by the way, if it is true that if you don't know about Jesus and the salvation and are judged on your life, you Christians actually send more of us to hell by preaching about it and teaching us of it than might go to hell otherwise. Considering the fact that, Christian or not, people are about equally as good, overall, in their lives).

And what about those of us, like me or that Hindu, who value everyone's path to the divine, who feel there are many paths to God rather than just one? That tacitly means that I accept the Christian theory on the grounds that it may be valid for some, but also that I accept other "pagan" or "infidel" paths. Also, I can't agree to the literal reading of the Bible/Gospels in many cases, which Christianity seems to require (at least some specific, stressed verses).

As far as "well, you might as well ask for "maximum light" sounds a lot like Pascal's Wager, believing just in case it's true. Even if it isn't, we are told not to test god or ask for signs. I've been searching for truth myself, but haven't gotten any evidence of a God or anything at all.

And in closing, I don't remember myself starting this discussion with the premise of "'what if the Bible has it right?" I was simply saying that your analogy of a parent letting their kid jump into a lake of fire if they had full knowledge failed, for the reasons previously listed. I mean, I doubt my parents would let me jump off a bridge if they could stop me, regardless of whether I knew it'd be suicide or not. Know why? Because they love me.

I also asked, what reason would a person who hears of this Christian theory have to believe it, aside from the fact that the Bible calls itself true?

 

I think we are having a problem with naming conventions and how we are categorising people etc?

When you are talking about Jesus and how he rolls - there is no such thing this guy being 'a something' and these 'people are something else' and such.
One of the very reasons Jesus did not go over well with the Pharisees is because He was all-inclusive.
They liked the idea that 'a people' were in some special position and 'those people' were something else etc.

There is no such 'thing' or 'people' as 'Christians' in some sense of a race or type of human or type of heritage and this sense.
Dig?
Its not really a 'Title' which exists and then Jesus finds them and has some special deal with 'The Christians'.
Everyone qualifies for the sacrifice,forgiveness, redemption, and the 'Free Pass' we were talking about.
Everyone.
Hindu, Brown, Female, Northern Hemispherian, Fat people, Tall people, Zoroastrians.. whatever.
Its there for everyone.

I suppose the title 'Christian' is just saying 'anyone who takes it' but its not the Title of a certain type of people like you are born or part of by region or whatnot.

Does that help?

 

When I say Christian, I mean someone who accepts the ideas generally labeled as Christianity.

Dig?

 

I dig. Its just that I hear weird nonsensical statements sometimes like:
"Oh.. so ony Christians can go to Heaven eh?"
Well.. basically that question is misleading in the way its framed. Its not like Christians exist beforehand and then just 'happened' to have the 'Right God'.

The way people talk you would think thats how they see it.

 

Funny thing is that's the basic premise of Clavinism, which is the particular brand of christianity that modern day american fundamentalism owes it's roots to.

Calvinists beleived that there's an "elect" faction of the human race who are destined from birth to be saved, everybody else is shit-out-of-luck.

Basically calvinism says that you have to be born a predeterminally saved christian.
If you are, you're saved no matter what you do.
If you're not, you're screwed no matter what you do.

 

For the record, Im not some sort of 100% loyal to the 'Tulip' Calvanist but I can tell you that you don't exactly have this right.

Not trying to speak for Calvinists here but what you have is a situation where God in all his omnicience and omnipotence can look down the corridors of time and has the ability to see the end results.

He may know that 'Joe will choose Yes' and 'Susan will choose No' but this does not change that Joe and Susan have, always had free, uninterfered with, Free Will.