The Rat "I am willing to debate you" thread.

^^^^^
Point, Set, and Match to Mr. Pressed_Rat.

 

I don't think you have answered what can we do



you've suggested what we can do to realize the problem


but nothing about how to solve it

 

Any chance of you answering the questions, rat? Or just blabbering defensively?

 

Concerning Rat

This is really funny, Rat completely bypasses the post with the questions to latch onto a opinion piece about the need to debate.

We’ll come back to the unanswered questions later but for now something a bit more serious…

I said “The problem is that some people seem to believe that what free speech means is that they should be allowed to express views without those views being challenged.”

Rat asked if that was his view, well no it seems his view is a lot more extreme

He argues that “Free speech is the ability to say whatever the fuck it is you want, without being persecuted for it”

Is he really arguing that if some one presents a viewpoint or theory and people ask questions or criticise that view or theory that is persecution?

That you are ‘persecuting’ someone if you ask them questions and expect reasonable replies?

Does he really equate being asked to defend his views with say being put in prison or tortured? It seems he does equating himself with “People being persecuted for speaking their minds…in Nazi Germany and the Communist regimes of Stalin and Mao”

I’ve actually meet people that have been persecuted for their views in apartheid South Africa they lost their livelihoods, health and liberty. So I find it sad and a little disconcerting that Rat has so little perspective on real life that he believes being asked a few questions on a public forum on the Internet is the equivalent to such persecution or worse.

**

“You are the one who reacts with anger anytime I challenge the beliefs you hold”

My dear Rat I’m not angry, I find your unwillingness to enter into debate a tad frustrating, but in fact as I’ve told you several times, I have found some of your antics very funny. I mean following your posts is often a bit like watching the cartoon character the Wiley Coyote, you go to such convoluted lengths just so you don’t have to answer a few simple questions.

As to challenging my beliefs, well think about it you haven’t actually put up anything that has challenged them, in fact your inability to debate many of your views in any reasonable way make it clear that it is your views and beliefs that seem to be challenged (succesfull it would seem) and you who seems to be upset by that.

**


So has Rat answered the question “What things can be done to counter all these powerful conspiracies other than just believing they exist and talking endlessly about them?

NO

So has Rat explained if he is a libertarian now and if not what political policies he would like to see in place in the US and which he thinks would undermine the elite’s power?

NO

Has he answered any of Jim W’s questions?

NO

Rat swore that he was willing to answer these questions and reply to these criticisms, has he?

NO

**

 

Fuzzy

“Therein lies the key. Fucking education”

I’m a great believer in education, but there are different views on what education should be. Some believe that been told how to think without question or criticism of those ideas being allowed is education, this seems to be the method preferred my Rat. Others believe that questioning and debate are the best methods to really lean things, the method I prefer.

Fuzzy are you really saying that you think people should not be able to ask questions or to expect a civil answer rather than evasion?

 

Luv

“Point, Set, and Match to Mr. Pressed_Rat.”

The game you are alluding to is tennis and debate can often seem like a game of tennis. One player or group serves an idea or theory, the other player or group send back questions or criticisms of that argument, the first players then sends back replies to these questions, and so on.

But imagine a game of tennis where the first player serves the ball, but then refuses all other involvement in the game so when the ball comes back over the net he refuses not only to hit it but even to admit that it has any relevance to him.

Then when asked to play and hit the ball, the first player claims he has, when told by the umpire that he hasn’t, the player throws down his racket and claims he is being persecuted.

Luv do you actually believe such a player would get many points let alone a set or a match?

 

I'm gonna regret getting invovled but.......

In Rat's first post, all he said was he wants people to educate themselves. Part of educating yourself is filtering what you're taking in and being responsible for verifying and questioning the source of all information you take in. Why do you insist on slandering him? I don't blame him for not answering your inane questions. Maybe he's not listening to you, but you ain't listening either. Just because he doesn't answer you word for word doesn't mean he hasn't given a satisfying answer.

And so you'll ask "What should we do about it?"

Educate yourself - this is the first step. Revolutions can't happen all at once you know - baby steps. Once a large enough percentage of the population recognizes that things are wrong, then we can take a significant course of action.

That course of action will depend on the specific issues you want to attack. There is not only one. You are generalizing too much. If you want to stop your country from becoming a fascist state, you need to stop supporting the state. You do this by rejecting illegal and unconstitutional actions taken by the US government. You do this by recognizing your rights and not letting others violate it, such as the police might do while enforcing anti-terrorism laws. People on this forum said they could be prosecuted in their schools under terrorism laws for nothing more than playing hookie. Don't stand for it. Once people know their rights they can begin to demand their rights. The masses outway the oppresors, but we're too divided, like Balbus and Rat. They essentially fight for the same basic human rights and freedoms, but waste valuable time bickering to each other, getting no where. As long as the masses are at odds with each other, how can they effectively be at odds with the real, hidden problems.

Rat, I wouldn't waste your time trying to teach physics to kindergarteners, they aren't ready.

And Balbus, don't even try asking me what I'd like to do about it. It's pretty obvious what everyone can do on a small scale, and you don't need me to tell you, you're too smart not to know. There are many tyrannies in this world, and there are many movements in every country to fight against oppressors. All they need is support and unity.

 

Hey! There's something you can do about it! votetoimpeach.org

Also concerning the "unanswered questions" why don't you try asking FAIR questions, WITHOUT going on the offense, and ONE AT A TIME. Then maybe you'll get a fair response. But if you're ridiculing people within each question you ask, obviously they will go on the defensive. Ttrue debating does not invlove petty bickering.

 

I really still want to know what sorts of candidates rat thinks we should vote for to break this evil influence of jewish bankers


because we're either voting for people or staging a coup


I want to know which he suggests


and how would this coup not be taken control of by this all powerful conspiracy?

I think these are fair questions, I don't think I have been offensive, they are not one at a time but to think anyone needs their questions portioned out that way seems rather condescending doesn't it?

and true debating involves 2 people willing to concede points, with some give and take

how many true debates has anyone ever seen on an internet forum?

<rant portion>

people are in their homes, they feel comfortable so they don't concede points, they look for excuses for the other person to be wrong even if it's clear they're right, if I searched long enough I could likely find someone willing to "debate" the inherent evils of the comma, there are millions of people on line, and hundreds of opinions, some just won't leave

<rant cessesation>

 

"All I said was education was the key. I think people would get your point better if you stop trying to shove your views down people throats."

LOL hey man who are you talking about me or Rat.

Think about it Rat (5,128 (10.83 posts per day) has been bombarding the political forums with his conspiracy theories many of them long cut and pasted articles or lists of quotes, while I (804 (1.71 posts per day ) ask a few questions and suddenly to you that means it is me shoving there views down peoples throats.

Come on Fuzzy!

.

 

FNA

I agree with most of what you say.

Educate yourself - this is the first step. Revolutions can't happen all at once you know - baby steps. Once a large enough percentage of the population recognizes that things are wrong, then we can take a significant course of action.

Totally agree

If you want to stop your country from becoming a fascist state, you need to stop supporting the state.

I find that a reasonable statement, my own view is that you need to organise and vote against those that would want to turn the state fascist. I’ve spent a fair part of my life protesting and being part of protest movements that oppose such types.

As long as the masses are at odds with each other, how can they effectively be at odds with the real, hidden problems.

I agree

**

So you might ask, why do I give Rat a hard time? I’m a left winger I have never made any secret of it and am proud of it, Rat is as far as I can tell a right wing libertarian and who has made many attacks on left wing political ideas.

I wish to limit the power and influence of the wealthy elite’s, the policies Rat seems to favour would, in my opinion, actually increase the power and influence of those wealthy elite’s. He might claim to be politically independent but the times he has expressed his views they have been libertarian in nature.

My view, which seem similar to yours, is that the people need to organise for change, so that as a group they can demand change either by voting for it or if that means is not open to them through revolution. Rat’s argument is that all political parties are or can easily be under the control of the generation spanning conspiracy he believes in, so there is little point in voting. It also seems to say that there is little point in people organising because any type of organisation can be corrupted and taken over by the generations spanning conspiracy that he believes in.

I’m sure you would say that we should counter the forces that wish to exploit the masses, I do, but I’m unsure that Rat does, and his evasiveness when I try to find out seems to me to speak volumes.

**

To recap

Rat seems to support the type of policies that would favour the wealthy elite.

Rat seems to say that voting isn’t worth it, which favours the wealth sponsored political parties.

Rat seems to say that it isn’t worth organising for change, which gives the wealthy elite a free hand to organise for changes that favour them.

Rat seems to claim that all left wing political thinking is controlled (in fact was invented) by the conspiracy he believes in and therefore should not be supported. Which favours the wealthy elite.

Now why is it that Rat (and others like him) who claim to be so against the wealthy elite, seem to be supporting so much that would favour the wealthy elite and make their position stronger?

 

I'm glad you agree with me. I must admit I haven't read Rat's posts as extensively as you have. The few I've read have made sense to me because of other things that I've read. I've never learned anything from him, but I think he has the right idea, maybe he just doesn't broadcast it effectively. Many of your criticisms of Rat in the last post I've never heard him say, but:

"Rat seems to say that voting isn’t worth it, which favours the wealth sponsored political parties."

I think what he is trying to say here is that voting has become somewhat of a joke. It's kinda deceptive to refer to left and right. What you mean is democrats and republicans. There are many parties that you can vote for all over the spectrum from left to right. Here in Canada we have 5 major contending parties. In the next election any one could win (well almost) but the thing about the US voting system is that it gives the impression that there is only two parties to vote for. That's not quite a democracy. Your choices should not be limited. Rat favours neither Reps nor Dems and no other party has a chance so whats the point? Well, the point is to try and strengthen outside parties with your votes. But most Americans feel they don't have a choice. They are both sham parties. Corrupt as hell, as is anyone in power. I haven't seen any evidence that they are the same entity, but I wouldn't be surprised. I have heard about, however, the systematic career assassination of any democrat, and indeed some republicans in powerful positions who oppose the current administration. It's so easy for the administration to do. Discredit the person, and the sheep will remove them.

Also voting becomes a little futile when the current administration controls the outcome. This is not conspiracy. This is documented fact. Even in the second election, I believe the administration used their electronic counting boxes to fix the outcome. It was fairly simple to do when it was they who appointed the people to oversee the elections. It's a dangerous kind of control, and people should be aware of how easily it's being done, or if not being done, could be done. Maybe. But then again, a lot of Americans actually like the guy. It's sad. And even sadder that America effects the entire world so much (especially Canada) and we get no say in anything. I read a statistic once that if it were a world election, Bush would have lost the election 23 states/countries/provinces for Bush, 3824 for Kerry. But then we'd have Kerry. Lesser of several evils. That's not a democracy.

http://www.b12partners.net/mt/archives/2004/12/if_the_world_ha.html

Sorry, a little off topic..........

 

In Rat's first post, all he said was he wants people to educate themselves. Part of educating yourself is filtering what you're taking in and being responsible for verifying and questioning the source of all information you take in. Why do you insist on slandering him? I don't blame him for not answering your inane questions. Maybe he's not listening to you, but you ain't listening either. Just because he doesn't answer you word for word doesn't mean he hasn't given a satisfying answer.


If you read a lot of P-R posts he does not do this, just starts a new thread about the same thing. Imho he has a lot of rhetoric about 'educating yourself' but again imho this means falling hook line and sinker for 'conspiracy' .. Believe what you wish though, i think the point balbus makes is that P-R never really answers questions that are not in his lexicon of generic replys.. This is a bit unfair maybe [just my humble opinion].

They are not 'inane' questions just trying to pry some answers out a person who dislikes being questioned too intently.

In the 'second election' even michael moore went home

http://www.news4jax.com/politics/3885211/detail.html

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=39688

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,13918,1340556,00.html

http://moorewatch.com/index.php/weblog/comments/1129/

 

That means nothing.....I don't place much faith in Moore's overly biased opinions. Although I do agree with most of them. I don't have any eveidence of corrupt polls the second time around, although I did read somewhere (forget where) that there were severely more votes cast in Ohio than there were actual registered voters. But I don't know. I would be willing to believe that Americans actually like Bush in their delusional superficial world.......but PERSONALLY i think it was all rigged..........

 

It does mean something... but not too yourself. Fair enough.. Look into the Ohio 'scandal' i think i might also.. Why do they have to be in a 'delusional and superficial world' and why do you have to believe it is 'rigged' ?.

 

Very well put, this is what I've been trying to tell people these days. I think I'm getting through to the people who are willing to listen!

 

Green I believe i have already replied to Rat's What do we do post

Here it is again if you missed it

**

Well I can only say that I’m rather disappointed, after giving us reassurances that he would debate in a frank and honest way, he has once again decided not to.

His post was mainly just a reiteration of his theories and views NOT sensible and reasonable replies to the questions and criticisms levelled at those theories and that viewpoint.

If we actually strip his post of those sections where he urges people to look at something else, etc, we get -


"What can we do?

Simply put, we can educate ourselves to how the system truly works. I am all for people taking to the streets as individuals, protesting. But, I also think protesting does very little if people don't even know what they're protesting against in the first place.
Before I go any further, I need to clear up the fallacy that I am a "libertarian". I am not a libertarian.


Since I am not a libertarian, I cannot fully answer your second question.


Lastly, I have long been accused by several people in the forum of being an anti-Semite. Nothing could be further from the truth."


**

I now Rat wants people to see things his way, I think the people on the forum understand that, the thing is it isn’t the ‘truth’ as he has often claimed it is only his viewpoint, which is disputed. But the question I have raised time and again is what do people do with the knowledge?

Let me try and make the question clearer.

If, as Rat argues, any political party is either under the control of the conspiracy or can be taken over by it, trying to vote for change must not be a possibility.

So even if people accept Rats viewpoint what are they to do?

Rat also thinks that any organisation can be controlled by the same conspiracy so it would seem difficult to put together a revolution.

So even if people accept Rats viewpoint what are they to do?

The question that remains unanswered is - What things can be done to counter all these powerful conspiracies other than just believing they exist and talking endlessly about them?

**

Rat has said on a number of occasions that he is a libertarian and I can quote these statements plus the posts and threads in which they were made.

Here is one
(Pressed Rat, March 18th "I am a libertarian, but that doesn't mean that I -- or any other libertarian-minded person for that matter -- believe that people who are in need should go without."
http://www.hipforums.com/forums/sho...59&page=2&pp=10
Post 17)

But let us not just jump to the conclusion that Rat is lying (even if he is a known lair), and give him the shadow of a doubt, he might now have decided not to be in favour of libertarian or libertarian like policies. This begs the question of what his political views are at this particular moment? He claims to be independent but that can be dismissed given the many posts he has posted attacking the left (and liberals), which make it clear he is not independent in any sense most people would understand.

It therefore seems only right to give him the chance to explain what political policies he would like to see in place in the US and which he thinks would undermine the elite’s power?

**

As to the claim of anti-Semitism, I have not made that accusation directly, but I have noted that some of Rats ‘evidence’ and the spirit of much more of it is of that ilk, as has been noted my many others on the forum. I do know that given the stigma associated with the publicly holding of such views that Rat would of course wish to disassociate himself from them in public even if he was to have them in private, which he might or might not have.

 

Is Rat ever coming back to actually debate things?

 

LOL

what up balbus

 

**

Nothing the matter K, just wondering why Rat hasn’t been around this thread lately I mean he was the one that asked for it to be started?

So do you want to discuss any of the criticisms leveled at Rats views?