On Equality

This is both a men's issue and a woman's issue, really.

I have to older brothers, Adam and Erich. My mother told me that when she was pregnant with Erich, she gave Adam, who was a little over one at the time, a doll. Kinda like his own baby to take care of. He loved it, and carried it around everywhere, including in public places. Yeah, you can probably see where this is heading: People would make rude comments about a boy carrying around a doll, you know the deal: "Boys should be playing with trucks, not dolls" "He's gonna grow up to become a queer" (I hate it when people call homosexuals queers, but Mom said she heard that one all the time) "That's for girls" blah blah blah blah blah. When I was little, I played with trucks and dolls. I got picked on, too... By adults. It was never kids.... The kids didn't care until they were older (in other words, until they learned to care). It was always the adults. I don't get it: why does it make a difference what toys kids play with? When I was little, my cousin Mickey and I used to play with Barbie dolls together all the time. I never really cared that Mickey was a boy playing with dolls. He was just a playmate as far as I was conserned.

Here's another example: One of my best friends, (perhaps a little more) Donato, is from Italy. We've all heard the stories about the "macho Italian men" stereotype... However, with Don's father, it's not a stereotype. It's his personality. Don, however, is not like that. He's one of them sensitive guys- that's why I like him so much. Don is such a sweetheart when he's not around his dad. But his dad will start shit with him about being a girly man, sometimes joking, sometimes not, and it will get Don all insecure. He really seems to be developing low self esteem because of it. What's wrong with with a guy writing poetry and being sensitive? Lot's of guys are like that. What's wrong with emotional men? Isn't that a good thing? Emotional people are more interesting and likeable.

I understand that men and woman are different, and I also recognize that many of those differences are man made. Guys don't avoid crying and whatnot because of biology, they do it because society has been telling them from the day they were born that girls cry, not boys, and doing something that girls do is bad. Woman are being told from birth that they shouldn't get dirty or act a certain way because that's what boys do, and doing something that boys isn't ladylike. So girls are crossing their legs and being prissy about being clean, and guys are trying to be more powerful and whatnot... How many people are actually like that? I mean, how many people act these ways because that's their personality, not because they think that's what their personality should be?

If we want men and woman to be equal, we have to respect everyone as people, and not just genders. That's our biggest problem right now, that both genders have stereotypes, and people are still having problems doing things that are connected to the other gender, and not doing things connected to their own gender.

Okay, so there's my rant of the day.

 

very nice, and very true. i can't, however, really help how i'm raising my daughter. she's so GIRLIE! i don't know how, i'm not really all that girlie. i haven't raised her with just baby dolls and pretty things, she's got a big set of tonka trucks and a kids hardware handy man kit. her favorite thing in the world is to play outside and throw little pebbles and watch them dance across the pavement, but at the same time, if she gets her hands dirty she freaks out, and she's always wanting makeup and to push her kitten around in a wagon. i don't know how it happened. i can't help being a woman trained in female behavior. i can't help passing that along. if she sees tools, they're "daddy's," if she see dishes, they're "mommy's." i suppose all i can hope for is to be able to raise her to be gentle and tolerant, while also being totally okay with her femininity and who she is.

 

i let my little boy play with dolls. he likes em better than other toys. he will carry em around and give em kisses
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i think the reason is beacause we r just entering in a new path of mean , i mean homosexual were like a disease 20 year ago so adults that grew in that part of humanity history learned different values, youll see in 10 years when our generation have their kids we will show them different values and put them in the right path. its history that makes us like that, if you think that we r all equal why women r scared of showing whi they really r (men also) i mean with that whats up with shaving and using different types of thing for theirs skin. we r used to see what modern society whants we to love. we dont love the real person we love the persons that r more like the ones we see on tb or magazines
why men shouldnt like women with hair in differents parts of their body if that is the real person,(this is just an example) now we r the ones that can change this, we should teach our children to be natural to love what we r not trying to change it not use stereotypes
we got the power to change all this
(sorry for my grammar mistakes , english is not my first language)

 

I completely agree. I used to have one of the cabbage patch dolls when I was little, and my mom says she got shit about it all the time. But still, that does'nt mean that women can't be lady like and guys can't be tough. It's like, I'm not going make my girlfriend or my mom or sister go mow the lawn and work outside. It's not that I'm trying to toss them into this helpless female image, it's just that it's something nice to do. Like holding the door for a lady, or picking something up for her if she drops it. Alot of girls I know get bothered when I hold the door open for them or offer to pay for lunch, when I really don't mean anything by it. Sometimes there's a really thin line between trying to fit an image and being yourself. Just because a guy does'nt cry does'nt mean that he's trying to be a tough guy, or if a girl wants to wear high heals and a dress does'nt always mean that she's trying to fit society's image of beauty. I think alot of people forget that.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with a girl being like that, if that's her personality. You seem to really care about letting her be her own individual, and that's important, too.

I'm not trying to be a snotty teenager who doesn't have kids telling other people how to raise their kids- I would never do that. I'm just sayin' what I'm seein'. And when people are acting that way to impress people, it's not just caused by parents, or even mostly parents. It's society.

 

Aww. That's sweet.

 

it's no worry. it's been something that's been on my mind. i don't really have any idea how to do more masculine things, i can't even start the lawn mower and i have no mechanical abilities whatsoever. i seem to be 100% opposite of my mother. i was hoping my daughter would have more of my mother or her own father in her, and while she has the energy and sense of adventure, my goodness, she does adore babies of all sorts. she'll be playing baseball, in gymnastics, not football, because her father is really squeemish about the injuries, it is his baby girl, after all, some concessions should be made.

but i was very limited in my sports exposure, and was pretty much completely shielded from all tasks "masculine." i was my mother's baby girl, dammit, and she wanted me to be a girl. i wasn't going to do that to kai, but she seems to be going that way anyway. maybe she'll like dance better than sports. who knows. but she's my girl.

 

In my opinion, having gender roles is good, but they should not interfere with a person's free will... his/her ability to think.

But sadly that is not the case today with the society that has brain washed individuals and some even take advantage of others due to this.

Like the store that doesn't hire men at the counters, they want women who attract more "friendly customers" .

My sister works at a store and they don't hire guys at the counter and give them hard labor . When I wanted the job, they replied "they don't need anyone to do a part time heavy duty labor job" , when I tried to say "I want to work at the counter", they said that post is not for "you". I was not qualified because i was a man even though I am a very good public speaker...

Today I say that was all karma, because now I have a part time job where I don't work with any heavy duty stuff... but rather I sit in a cubicle

Anyway, the point is , world goes around. Just like women have certain things that they are preferred for, men are too preferred for something, you have to be an intellectual to be over such differences and see the non-duality in duality.

When it comes doing basic things, men and women are the same no matter how much we think we are not good for some jobs. Most of the things that we think about- what can we do, or what can we not do , depend on our sub conscious mind. - If that is clear, then we can do any job that we would like.

In the same way, emotions are also affected by the subconscious mind. The exaggerated association of femaleness to sensitivity has been imprinted so well in our minds that if a 'masculine' character shows these traits, he is given an abnormal identity.
The same way, if a "female character" shows the traits of some thing 'masculine' then she is also given an abnormal character.

Many things that are said to be "masculine" are being shattered as myths nowadays and it is good. As we do that, it is only fair to shatter the myths such as "feminine traits" too... -only in my opinion ofcourse.

 

Actually, there is a biological basis as to why men cry less and less easily than womyn. The hormone prolactin is present in about 10 times the amount in non lactating womyn than in normal men. Prolactin causes the brain and the tear ducts to cry more easily. (Lactating womyn and pregnant womyn have about 100 time the amount, thus explains crying at telephone company commercials and Mr Rogers when pregnant and lactating.) It is simply more difficult (not impossible) for men to cry than womyn. It isn't really impossible, of course, just happens less due to biology, in part. (Little children don't have enough testosterone to inhibit prolactin, so little boys cry about the same as little girls, up to a certain age.) It isn't learning, for the most part, it is biology. Although boys are often taught not to cry, even before their testosterone kicks in.

That being said, my kids have all had dolls and trucks. Lennon (my boy) would cuddle dolls, and then use them as hammers! My two older girls would take their dolls and have tea parties in the trucks. Sage plays with dolls and trucks equally. Every child is different. I say give a child a wide range of toys and let them play with what they want.

 

It may be partually biology then, but I fail to believe that it is more biology than society.

 

I would wager that it about 50 50.

 

i have to figure that it is a combination. my mother has always been very masculine, sporty, athletic. but i managed to be very feminine, down to the way i sit when i'm eating, but only in the physical sense. the mental/psychological area of my development has been completely dominated by the men in my life.

 

Biology has a lot to do with it, but I think environment/society is just as important. My boyfriend, for example-grew up with a mom, 2 sisters (no brothers), and 4 aunts. He definitely seems to have more "feminine" traits in terms of emotions. I actually wanted to consummate our relationship before he did, because he told me he had to be in love with someone to sleep with them (we did engage in oral months prior). I've seen him cry on more than one occasion-he's very emphathetic. The best is that he's old enough to be secure with his emotions, and not feel the need to put on a masculine front. I mean, he's masculine when it counts, but overall, very tuned into emotions. Some girls may prefer a more "manly" man, but I've had enough of those to know that I prefer someone who actually gives a fuck about things.

 

well, my husband is manly, but he gives a fuck. manly doesn't mean emotionally dead, that's immaturity.

 

If I saw my son playing with dolls I would put an end to that shit right then and there, I'd make him take a couple M-80s to the doll. That being said i'm not a homophobe, i have gay friends, and I wouldn't be too heart broken if i had a gay son... I just wouldn't help that out by letting him play with dolls when hes a kid.

Hah, I don't actually think a boys is more likely to be gay if he plays with dolls. But I don't think theres anything wrong with gender roles, or a general societal stereotype of them. Some people get overzealous with enforcing gender roles though, and thats gotta be bad for a kid. Theres nothing wrong with a girl liking tea parties and a boy liking sports, or visa versua. But theres nothing wrong with defined gender roles, and sometimes stereotypes are true. I really don't cry, cause I don't feel like crying, almost ever. If I did though, I'm sure i would.. I guess. I'm into martial arts, but I'm also kinda prissy about being clean, and I'm fairly sensitive. I'm also attracted to girls with a good sense of fashion, but I like em to be athletic too.

I don't see many problems with gender roles as they are in the year 2004 and I don't see any reason the lines between sexes should become anymore ambigous.

 

Sorry mynameis, didn't mean to imply than "manly" man couldn't be mature. I suppose I should have said "machismo", that was more along the lines of what I was talking about.

 

You see there is nothing wrong with being a macho or being feminine. The problem comes up when such a thing is reinforced so much that it takes away the individual's liberty to be in his/her own natural state.

It is similar to a situation where an individual's gender comes up in the middle to determine his/her "skill" where gender has almost no reason to be there.

 

I kinda agree. I'm not arguing that society does enforce some gender roles, but I don't think a mild amount of this is in any way detrimental to childhood development. I also think that in the 21st century, kids are getting a fairly balanced look at gender roles. Maybe from different sources, but I mean one channel might have Saving Private Ryan on, and Bravo is running Queer Eye For The Straight Guy pretty much 24/7.

 

i'd agree here with most of the ppl and say that theres nothing wrong with guys playing with dolls or girls havin fun with trucks... whats wrong is when kids are told that they're supposed to being doing somethng else....

for example.. i grew up playing with my sister's dolls... and make up kits and then there used to be those moments where my mom would make me take off the lipstick and mascara off my face with severe anger...at the time i had no idea why she was like that.. to me it was normal... still is... but there was a part of my growing up when i was confused between whats expected of me as a guy.. it grew into emotional outbreaks... and ended up into feeling trapped in a woman's body yet attracted to women... but the point is.... if kids are allowed to play with whatever they wanna - toys i mean... like dolls or trucks... its fine... if theres a need for it to be corrected... it should be done with proper reasoning.... but my line would be... its a free world.. they are kids after all.. innocence beamin outwards....you would be stealin their innocence indirectly and makin them feel bad if u were to tell them not to play with dolls or trucks... whichever u see fit... but its not u... u're not the one whos the kid.... allow the kid to be one with herself/himself.... thats my lines of thought..... (if anyone didn't get what i just said... dun bother 'cos this whole thread just reminded me of my childhood.....maybe i made sense,.,,, maybe i didn't.. i just felt like contributin when i saw this topic )