Turnabout is Fair Play: What is the 'Gay' view of Traditional Christian Views?

The essential plot element of Inherit the Wind is stand of the brave individualist against small-minded bigotry and isn't Hitler Youth propaganda. As Obi-Wan put it, "it all depends on YOUR point of view". I am a firm believer in EVOLUTION and think creation is one of the greatest mind fucks in history.

Back to the topic at hand. because it isn;t about Evolution vs creation. It is vary obvious that neither side is going to sway the other. I see christians and hate-filled war mongers on the homosexual community and they would like to see all of us HOMO-SEX-U-ALS burned at the stake. that is MY point of view, that is how I see christianity's views of homosexals, right or wrong, that is how I percieve it. It is how I see you, Erasmus70, as how you think of us. I also see you as a myopic bible thumper, blind to the views of anyone who thinks differently from you. You firmly believe in your book of fiction, fine, what ever .. but what is the difference in the strength of your beliefs and the beliefs and convictions of the Jihadist of 911 ? they were just as believing in their faith as you are in yours and are just as equally repugnant.

 

Are you actually asking "How can you blame people for frowning on those suffering from mental dysfunction?", you really need to stop, right there.

Alcoholism is a curable condition; homosexuality isn't.

Is there really any point in frowning on something that isn't going to go away, or more accurately, isn't capable of going away? Christina Aguillera (or the people who pull her strings) has a choice as to whether she is visually sexualised. An individual has the choice to commit any act that they or society in general considers reprehensible or wrong. An individual does not have a choice in whether they are born gay or straight, black or white, male or female; they may be able to change that during their life, but why should they?

 

Agreed.

If you find homosexuality a "disease" or "addiction" similar to alcoholism, then you're under the wrong impressions, here.

In terms of certain things being "frowned" upon, its usually taboo in our society, or any society in that matter. I'm not limiting the "frowning" to mental handicaps, and I surely don't mean to put homosexuality under that category. Even something physical like being born with 11 toes or without a nose could be "frowned" upon because its abnormal and different. However, thats not the persons fault, and neither is someone who is a homosexual.

I know, I know...You're fundamentally a Christian, so psychologically and fundamentally/traditionally you believe otherwise in homosexuality (or so it seems). Fine, that's your take on it. However, be sure that there's always the antithesis to a thesis and there's never a concrete answer. I find homosexuality to be a VERY sensitive issue when it comes to Catholicism because there really is no definite answer and several Catholics are torn between this issue.

As for me, I knew I was always a homosexual. It was always there; I never had the same interest towards women that I had for men. In fact, I always felt "wrong" when it came to the topic of women on a more sexual level. Even when people asked me who I liked, I'd try and drop the subject because I felt extremely uncomfortable. It wasn't until my freshman year of High School when I started to begin acknowledging these feelings on a realistic level. Being scared about the fact that I was a pretty doevoted Catholic (although I kinda forced myself to behave that way) who is currently in a High School Seminary, I prayed to God every morning at mass to help me overcome my "homosexual urges." However, I was praying for the wrong reasons. I was more concerned about my societal reputation as a homosexual (especially since I was a Catholic) rather than truly praying and believing that homosexuality was wrong. It wasn't until I followed my heart when I began accepting myself as a homosexual and realized that my prayers were unnecessary in the first place.

 

So anyway, my take on it...

We have our opinions and beliefs. But you know what, if you're a believer in God, then any Catholic or other religion should be aware that it ultimately comes down to his decision and judgement in the end. So therefore, who should be the judge of anyone? (Of course as humans, we're going to judge and criticize people, but others go a bit too far) I have NO idea what's in store for me when I die and meet Him. Homosexuality could be a sin, or it could not be a sin. But I don't know that, and I'm doing what I genuinely believe and feel in. When I die and face Him in the end and if I find out I'm wrong, all I ask is for His mercy to help me come to terms with whatever it is because after all, God should be a merciful God who should help those in despair when they don't see the "light."

I feel that many people, especially Catholics, believe that redemption is impossible once you die and face God. In some cases I feel it's just a way to scare people in order to main order in society. Thats why I find that when it comes to divine and Chruch law, people tend to take it very seriously. Whatever. As for me, all I care for is to live my life by AT LEAST trying to follow God's golden rule- Love others as I have loved you with all your heart, mine, and soul.

And thats a more far more difficult task to achieve than ANY other commandment of God.

 

Yeah.. I gotta tell you there is a whole thing going on with your story and many others inside that Catholic situation and in regards to homosexuality.
Although I attended Catholic schools (when not in more bizarre public schools) and being one to attend Mass now and then - I still cant quite 'explain' what is going on in there with the whole shame and guilt spiral phenom with homosexuality.
Not even sure if that is the 'best' way to describe it but you angle is what I would be talking about for sure.

One of the issues to take a look at has to the entire idea that you somehow must be a homosexual or (partly or leaning or 'going towards) because you have either a social anxiety disorder (very common in young men) and maybe that blended into a certain 'shame or guilt' issue with lustful thoughts.. heck.. romantic thoughts even.
And all of these are very real and very acceptable conditions and heck I work with a young college kid that is in that same situation (although he is a Muslim so that Catholic situation doesnt seem to be at play there).
Anyways..
I would have to take this back to the one and only commandment there is now and that to love one another.
Are you being loving to another man when you facilitate his homosexual behavior?
Are you showing love and respect to your own self?

Since Im not a Catholic or even a very cooperative Presbylutheran I woud say you might have a lot of extreme duress when you begin to try and answer those questions under a some horrific anvil of guilt/shame issue hanging above your head.
Try thinking those same issues through under a new impression that there is NO LONGER any guilt or penalty to be awaiting your answer.
Consider that there is no more issue of shame or guilt anymore.
I suspect that will actually free your heart and soul from accute anxiety and pressure - which in a sad irony may very well fuel more spiraling away from that answer.

 

I'd be surprised if anyone, secular or otherwise, answered "no" to either of these questions. Obviously there are abusive and loveless relationships, joyless and destructive sex, but these matters are equally as applicable to heterosexuals.

I personally believe that self-observation is absolutely crucial to our development as people, however being asked to question yourself is a dangerous thing, as often those who are asking are only really looking for the "right" answers.

 

Ok, but the fact you are aware of that, imo, gives you the ability to go ahead and question yourself with all the more honesty and with even less pressure to give anyone a 'right' answer they are looking for.

Even still, I think a 'loaded' question can be essential to both the person answering and the person who asked the question too.

Case in point: I was recently asked how or why I had found some interesting ideas, comments and suggestions in these forums that have informed my opinions about homosexuality and views on it.

In this case, I had seen a certain member claiming to be opposed to Nazi belief systems but then seeming to post comments which aligned quite closely to Adolph Hitlers world view.
If I was to ask him straight out whether or not he was a Nazi or agreed with Hitlers view of Christians - almost certainly he would have made an outright denial and offered me no introspection.
LIKEWISE
I would never be able to get a chance to listen and then think through where he was coming from.

In this case I asked

Would you agree that there is something very unhealthy about Christianity?

This being an opinion of Adolph Hitler.

Would you agree the best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death and that when better understanding has become widespread - Christian doctrine will be proven to be absurd?

This being a view held by Hitler.

Another question .. considering you believe homosexuality is protected by government (which I agree it is 'officially' valid) then would you like to see to it that the Churches cannot spread around teachings in conflict with the interests of the Government?

This is not exactly a view of Hitler in that he never mentioned Homosexuality - a behavior which he attributed to something like a flaw in Evolution (or Evolution trying to remove it from itself).

He did however believe that Churches should not be allowed to spread around teachings which would conflict with the Government.
So.. If a Church was to go about teaching that Jews ought not be pillaged then this was to be stopped - by force if necessary.
In fact it was time and time again and a lot of Christians bought a lead bullet for 'Teaching hateful' things (meaning anything that contradicted official Government policy).

There is no 'Right Answer' here and believe it or not its possible to to actually AGREE with Hitler on one point but not need to agree with everything else either.
I think the OttoBaun was a great idea of Hitlers.
I do not 'therefore' think invading Poland was somehow acceptable.

Anyways.. I think the answers I did see here were very refreshing and held out some hope that most homsexual apologists are not willing to compromise democracy and freedom of speech just to 'win' their cause.

Sadly, the person these questions were directed to has now gone past using the horrors of Nazism to 'out insult' his opposition but is now using raped children as a sort of 'mud' he can pick up and sling and use against people.

So, Real Inspiration and Hope being found here and then also a rather horrifying realisation than sick people still lurk around within that too.

Very interesting and thanks to everyone who replied with sincere and thoughful comments!

 

True, but I don't think I'd be blowing my own trumpet too hard if I suggested that the majority of the world could be manipulated in that way without realising it, made to feel guilt or self-hatred by those who benefit from a populace with low self-esteem and a punishing conscience (e.g. ministers of religion).

It can be if you're trying to persuade them, but it generally goes hand in hand with emotional manipulation. For example, most of the time, if someone stated that a view was held by Hitler, it would be to detract credibility from that view, since Hitler is commonly considered a bad thing, and because it would not be difficult to find a more culturally acceptable source for the same view. I'm not saying this is the case, but when being asked a loaded question there is always the feeling that the inquisitor is trying to work "common sense" on you, suggesting that there is an obvious answer to the question, and that if you don't give it it must be because you don't understand the issue rather than because you disagree. I get in a lot of these kinds of arguments, so I'm always careful to avoid them. It's just easier to ask and then make it clear why you asked, if you want a more honest answer from the subject.

 

I'm deliberately avoiding a direct response to the Nazi reference: I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about but I don't think it need be discussed any further, especially since it seems likely to cause undue unrest.

 

You wont be surprised when I say I do not agree that Ministers of Religion benefit or exploit peoples low self-esteem or guilt, self-loathing.
Not necessarily.
Fortunately not any decent Christian Minister worth his Ordination papers who can and would tell you there is freedom from those things in Christ.
Freedom FROM those things.

I suppose that is what its all getting down to because I look at your story as someone who is most definately caught in (was caught in) a terrible and ultimately vicious cycle of 'Religion'.
Religion (by this I mean Law and Condemnation) will kill you.
Really.
The Law buries you.
This would seem to describe or fit into the dilema you were experiencing.

I think you are at a huge advantage that you have (at least partly) recognised the vicious downward 'shame-guilt-punishment' sort of spiral takes you down.
Eventually you MUST give up just as you did.

I think a good messenger would give you some good news and let you know that these issues of guilt, shame and punishment are done away with for once and for all.
Now you are free to go ahead into a conversation with yourself and God without being put into that inescapable and ever-closing downward trap system.

I dont think Im solving this right now but I really want to know if you can look at this - hold it up to your early struggle inside that worldview you were dealing with.
Consider what you might have done if God himself came down in those pews and stopped you and told you Himself that there were now no more questions or issues of guilt, shame and self-loathing anymore.
How would that have changed that internal dialogue and struggle.
Im very interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

(no intentions to turn this into a personal convo but I think your experience is very interesting to this topic as a whole. PM is there too)

*flu-ridden poster tonight. may be even worse grammar than usual. my bad.

 

Christian values are lovely to a degree. Then they get into sexual perversion.
I honestly think that the the traditional Christian hyper-taboo surrounding sex does far, far more damage than good. I think that is where the guilt-tripping comes in.
Sure, it's a good method for keeping you daughters "pure" back in the middle-ages, but people taught to exercise their sexual drive carefully, responsibly and at their own disgression (within the rights of others) invariably seem a lot healthier.
Sexuality aside, I like the way certain Christians pull-together, and I like the way a rare few are actually tolerant. I don't like how the majority of Christians seem to be angry people trying not to be mad.

 

I don't like people sneering at me.
I don't like people trying to shame me.
I don't like people trying to recruit vulnerable teens.
So yeah, I don't really care for most christians either.

 

Not sure if we're talking at cross purposes here. Maybe you're thinking of someone else. I've not really ever had a religion.

Honestly, I doubt it would've made any difference. I've no particularly reason to believe or disbelieve the existence of God, but if we assume that He exists, and that the whole Garden of Eden, free will business actually happened, then He doesn't really sound like someone who could help me. Either He doesn't think the way we do, or He's just one confused individual.

Either way, I think there's infinitely more benefit in pursuing your own answers to those questions than just taking someone else's view as read. Sherlock Holmes said that once we eliminate all impossibilities, whatever's left, however improbably, must be the truth. Maybe that's where I'm coming from. I don't want to just be given an answer. I've been given enough "answers", and on closer interrogation they are rarely anything of the sort. A point of view presented as fact can look like the truth.

To me, the search for clarity in this world is more about divorcing yourself from those truths, and searching for something that is absolutely real, if only to you. I can't claim I've found that, but if it comes from me, I will be able to trust it; if it comes from God, I don't know that I can.