Pro-life or pro-choice?

I've wavered on this subject for months, but I think I'm going to stand firm now, on one side. As a woman that has carried a pregnancy, felt the wonder of it, read up on research about prenatal psychology, I am now PRO-LIFE.

There is too much evidence to support that as early as 6 weeks, embryoes have brain waves and feel and react when brushed with a single hair. Some react like they have been scared, others seem to not be as bothered. They differ, as if they have personality. So they feel, think, have personality, and that makes them human. They depend on someone for nutrients, oxygen, and protection from the outside elements, but then again, so do people in deep comas.

If this were any other situation in which one person were facing a decision about killing another, you know how you'd react. You'd say "That's murder. It's wrong." And murder is wrong. Why should one human decide the fate of another?

I have an idea. If everyone on the pro-life side of this debate and everyone on the pro-choice side decided to stop fighting about THIS part of the issue and focused on its origin: the lack of comprehensive sexual education, we'd have a much better chance of getting something done that would not only bolster the equal rights of both sexes in this situation by allowing them both to make good, healthy decisions about their sexual rights and responsibilities, and we'd also reduce the number of instances in which we fight over whether or not abortion is right.

If a woman and a man were both presented with a goodly understanding of the rights and responsibilities of each of them when committing the act of sexual intercourse, were provided with free birthcontrol of their choosing as well as education on how to properly use that birthcontrol, and then still became pregnant, that would be an instance in which I, personally, would not support their want to have an abortion, at all. They were presented with every opportunity to protect themselves and didn't. If they decided they didn't want that responsibility, they could give the child up for adoption. There wouldn't be nearly as many of these situations if we, as a collective group, worked together to make sure that:

1. Sexual education was comprehensive, and complete, for middle school and high school ages.
2. Birth control was available to all persons, regardless of income and age, as well as educating the recipients in how to properly use the birth control of their choice as well as side effects for not using it properly.
3. Uncomplicating the adoption system in the United States so that those unfortunates that end up with an unwanted pregnancy can find a couple that matches what they want for their child and accepts the terms of the adoption (open, letters per year, photographs, etc)

Basically, this is a huge issue in the United States and we're allowing them to divide and conquer us. If we all stood firm about getting something done to prevent this particular issue, something would have to be done. Our right-wing government couldn't say that abstinence only education is the way to go. They'd have to listen.

 

"But why should you have the choice to kill?

I can see how women would feel it should be their choice. But how many pro-choice people have really tried to understand why a pro-lifer thinks the way they do? I think if you put yourself in their frame of mind for a moment, you might not be so rushed to condemn them for believing what they believe."

I have put myself in the postition of a pro-lifer. I used to be a pro-lifer. That's what my parents believed so therefore I went along. Until I started to think about it, and had friends at the age of 14 and 15 that were ending up pregnant. They both had abortions. Why? For the good of their life and their un-born child. If they would have had those children, those poor babies would have had NOTHING. Those girls would have had NOTHING. Way too young. And now as a consequence they are going to have to live with the fact that they had an abortion. Knowing they put down what could have been a baby. But also knowing...they save a life.

 

However, in those situations, if they had had a proper education concerning their sexual rights and responsibilities, they more than likely would not have ended up in that situation to begin with.

And I am an opinion coming from both sides of the fence. I was once the president of the Voices of Planned Parenthood, Truman State Chapter. I organised bhurma shaves, road-side pro-choice picketing that paralleled the pro-life rallies happening in our town at the time. I've voiced strong opinions for women's rights.

However, now I see that the real problem is the one being ignored in the race to disagree with everyone else. SEXUAL EDUCATION is the KEY here. If we came together to fight for that one issue alone, we wouldn't have to worry about 14 year olds having abortions. They'd have access to every point of information and protection that they need.

 

Here of course is the real problem. The right wing in this country is not just anti-choice, but they are against all of the changes brought about by the sex revolution in the 60's and want to reverse those changes. They don't just want to stop abortions, they also want sex education limited to teaching abstainace from sex as the only exceptable way. Additionally they want to limit accessabilty of birth control. If you do a google search, you find legislation in various states giving pharmasists the abilty to deny birth control to women based on thier own personal moral values without regard to why the women wants the birth control. I can not help but feel the real agenda here is not saving babies, but rather sexual repression.

 

You have become anti-abortion and you want to restrict a woman's right to choose because of some "study" you read? I gotta see that study! How in the heck do you brush a 6 week embryo with your hair. That's crazy! "Some react like they have been scared" Not only are you able to brush them with hair but you can communicate with them and determine how they are feeling. What?

Any single cell organism will react to stimuli, even the fungus that grows on your bathroom floor. So, are you saying I shouldn't wash my bathroom floor either because it may cause duress to the fungus? Studies have shown that when you try to wash some fungi it "reacts like they have been scared."

But then of course what you really wanted to tell us is "abstinence and marriage."
Pa-leeze!

The reason for legalizing abortions is that women were shoving coat hangers up there to abort their fetuses. Many young girls, children themselves, died trying that method. When you are flaunting your own "Christian" morals it's easy to say that those girls should have known better. It's easy to shame them. It's easy to say that you are a "better" person because you would never do that. It's easy to make it illegal. It's so damn easy. What's hard is to show christian compassion. But that's what choice is about.

 

Boy, you make a lot of assumptions about someone you don't know. Well, how about me? I'm a bisexual male who smokes pot, looks at porn, swears like a sailor, and drinks to drunkenness. I'm against the death penalty. I'm a nudist. How "Christian" do you think I am? So I don't think it's fair of you to make these assumptions about us, labelling us as something we're not, and stating our beliefs incorrectly.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to disgrace christians by suggesting you are one.

Still, yours is a piss poor come back, sailor. I'm still looking for the evidence of your "study" on hairy fetuses.

ps. what I refered to was '"Christian" morals' which of course any wayward soul may adopt without becomming a christian.

 

I'm NOT right-wing or conservative.

I'm not the stereotypical Christian.

I'm saying that if both sides of this debate came together and voiced the opinion of opening up sexual education to be as comprehensive as possible, at the same time making all forms of birth control easily accessible, the ring-wing would have to give in and follow our lead. I'm saying to quit letting them conquer us by dividing us. We're all fighting for the same thing: better quality of life for women of all ages and every baby born. If we can teach these women how to properly protect themselves, we won't have this particular problem to the extent that we have it today.

Women that were having coat-hanger abortions were the same ladies that were told that an aspirin in a coke bottle was effective birth control and that men whispered in their ears to get them pregnant. If we can teach 13 year olds how sex happens, why it happens, what happens when it happens, and how to prevent STDs and pregnancies, we'll be taking care of a ton of problems that we're having at this point. We'd take care of the unplanned pregnancies AS WELL as taking care of the STD outbreaks.

As far as that study is concerned, the scientists involved were photographing and manipulating embryoes within the wombs of participating women. They photographed the reactions of the embryoes as they stroked a single hair against a part of the embryo. They then recorded how the embryoes reacted, and many showed the universally recognised signs of fright, as in jumping a bit as if frightened, or shaking.
And these aren't new studies. These studies are almost 60 years old in some cases.

"The First Nine Months of Life" by Geraldine Flanagan, 1965
"The Prenatal Origins of Behavior" by Davenport Hooker, 1952
"Fetal Movement Patterns in the First Trimester of Pregnancy" by L.G.R. Van Dongen and E.G. Goudie, 1980
"The Foetus as a Personality" by A. William Lilley, 1972
"The Secret Life of the Unborn Child" by Thomas Verny and John Kelley, 1981
"Prenatal and Perinatal Imprints: Apparent Prenatal Consciousness as Revealed by Hypnosis" by David Cheek, 1986
"Transuterine Communications in Problem Pregnancies" by Clara M. Riley, 1987

That last report said that in cases in which mothers are contemplating abortion, if they will talk with their embryoes and tell them that they just can't have them then, explain their situations to their embryoes, in most cases, the pregnancy ends itself. Or if the abortion is performed, the woman feels overcome with a sense of peace and understanding, as if the embryo understands.

And Mychal, I'm sorry, but your attitude not only disgraces any argument you put forth, but shows how unwilling you are to see this argument from any other point of view, making you, in many ways, just as dispicable as the right-wing conservatives you seem to hate so badly.

 

Sorry, but I'm not going to sit down and read those 5 books you just listed. I am not because I could probably list 20 books that refute those 5. I was hoping that you had read them and would have page numbers and excerpts that back up your position on hair stimulation to fetus. Like I said, any organism reacts to stimuli. Period. You can project what ever emotion you want onto it.

Right now in schools they do teach how to protect yourself from getting an STD. Teaching Abstinence and Marriage is pedantry, which is better served at home. Because I disagree with you doesn't mean that I am intolerant or intolerable. It just means I disagree. okay?

 

I'm prochoice, but anti abortion.

 

You need page numbers? Okay, can do.

1. the whole book should be read
2. Same here
3. was in the British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology 87, pages 191-193.
4. was in the Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry 6 (2), pages 99-105
5. the whole book
6. was in Pre and Perinatal Psychology Journal 1 (Winter), pages 97-110
7. was in the Pre and Perinatal Psychology Journal 1 (3), pages 180-190

As far as the sexual education provided in schools, it's not near as comprehensive as it should be. Instead of offering indepth education about sexual rights and responsibilites, they read through basic information on STDs, the male and female reproductive organs, and how pregnancy occurs. But they don't discuss how to protect oneself against STDs and pregnancy other than to say "Don't have sex".

And I'm sorry I made such a statement about your attitude, but you came across in a very rude and condescending manner. Sorry to offend.

 

Thanks for providing the page numbers for those books and the excerpts that support your wild claims. But I'm not about to go out and buy them and I'm not going to the library to search for them either.

Your claim that you just suddenly turned Anti-Abortion is dubious, seeing as you've read and kept notes on at least 7 anti-Abortion books on the subject.

And there's no reason to make apologies to me. I was harsh. I become harsh when I think somebody is trying to pull the wool over my eyes. Like I said before, Tickling a 7 week old fetus with a hair is preposterous. Likewise, suggesting that the fetus was frightened by the stimuli is subjective nonsense. I know that anti-abortionists will go to extremes to win converts, but your story is a new one.

Your proposals for sex education are right out of the right wing propaganda tracts too. Schools can and do teach morals and responsibility to our kids. It's taught in civics class and it's taught on the playground and in gym class. What you learn there should be applied to all areas of your life. What you're proposing is a religious message, Abstinence and Marriage, which is pedantry and best taught at home or in the church. It might sound like a "compromise" to you, but I don't want my kids to be fed Right Wing Christian Propaganda at school, thank you very much.

I know what your going to say: Schools don't teach enough blah blah blah. That's always the rebuttal with apologists. What they don't teach enough of, thank God, is right wing propaganda. For me, the reasonable compromise is that we keep it that way.

 

Well said.
That is about as clear and concise as you could state how I feel.
Someone detailed all the things that are in existence in a foetus, which is quite true. My only additional point is that the moment the sperm enters the egg, and it becomes fertile, even though it is only one cell, that one cell is an individual. It is a potential Mother Teresa, Einstein, Stalin, or John Doe. As such, it is clear to me that abortion is not a good thing. To clarify, any woman I have spoken to who has had an abortion was affected by it. It is sad. It is not something you forget. Nonetheless, although it is not good, in that sense, it is a reality, and the best option in some cases. Abortions have always been done, and always will be. Legalizing them just makes the tragedy much less likely to be compounded. Back alley abortions are far more dangerous, and if it is outlawed that is what will happen.
It would be wonderful if there never was another abortion, but that is a fantasy, so since they are a reality, lets make sure the mothers don't die due to a botched butcher job in a back alley somewhere.

 

no comment.

 

I don't think I would ever vote for either, because I'll never truly be in the same situation as any pregnant woman.

Not allowing something to live may seem a little immoral, but maybe the sperm were happier where they were anyways.

Yeah, pro-life, but pro-choice.