I might be gay or bi, but I'm going to go back into the "closet"

Self-Control: I won't be. I'm quoting guys like Dan Savage and other Seattle staffers, and my own experience watching my friends entering gay life.

 

I really don't think that was what was meant by "sick".

 

Perhaps I am biased because men do not interest me at all, even though I am liberal on such issues. I am also skeptical of comparisons between humans and animals, since I am aware of cases of pets attempting to mount humans. I don't believe pets have an innate preference for humans. Because animals live by instinct, I would think there'd be cases where confusion might arise given certain environmental conditions. I wonder, also, if these cases of homosexuality occur as frequently with access to the opposite sex among most species.

 

Well, everyone else is speaking from experience too, so I guess you're just hanging out with a bad crowd.

 

Well, I'm sure I've seen gays who weren't in that mold too, but it would technically have been impossible to recognize them as such.

What I was getting at is the notion that I empathize with the OP, saying he's looking for love. What are his options? Going out to a gay bar? Club kids. Personal ads? Guys cheating around, etc. Going up to random guys and coming out to them? Not a wise move.

 

Well, this thread started off well, but it seems like there are quite a few silly guys who have a keen interest in stereotyping gays. Frankly it'is a bit creepy. I suppose no place is free of godbotherers :sigh:

 

Those things don't work for straights either. And the best advice you can give is the same advice you'd give straight guys: don't go looking for it. If he's out to your friends and they're not the OMG LEIK I HAV A GAY FREND* type, then they may try and send someone worthwhile his way. You meet people through people. That's the normal way of dating, and generally any other way involves a multitude of false starts, disappointments and weirdos who couldn't play the game if they could be bothered.

* The type who collect gay guys and then try and pair them off despite them only having their sexual organs in common.

 

RE: * The type who collect gay guys and then try and pair them off despite them only having their sexual organs in common.

HAR HAR HAR seen that before.

I'm not gay and I've never done that but we had mutual female friends who couldn't wait to pair em off.

 

You're right, these aren't always the ideal place to meet someone, but you never know, you may find a nice guy anywhere.

I believe most people can judge the type of crowd they want to "run" with. For example, I am not into meth, or flamers dressed like cowboys, but that's just me.

 

Irongoth, your posts confuse me. I find it hard to discern where you're comming from. You display a distain that seems to border on rage. All I can think to ask is what on earth did they do to you to make you so bitter about gays?

You say you have gay friends, yet you refer to them in the rudest manner. My friends would never talk about me like that. You say you aren't homophobic. What exactly does that mean to you? The dictionary definition of homophobia is "fear" of homosexuals. That's the literal meaning. You go out of your way to protest the fact (doth protest too much?) that you aren't afraid of gays. Yet, you make these blanket generalizations which are bigoted if not points of contention.

I've known hundreds of gay men that I could call friend. I have known the life stories of thousands, or parts of their stories. The type of character that you would like to brand all gay ppl with does exist. In my experience it's an aberrant minority. Often a phase that ppl go through when they're young. The bigger question is why. You infer that this is just how gays are.

I believe that the aberrance is a reaction to not having a proper place in the world. We aren't allowed families, homes, job security or even security while walking down the street. And all the time we're reminded how much hate there is in the world.

I've learned to handle the hate, the mean that is directed at me. To survive, you have to. What is hard to bear is looking people like you in the eye. People who may be well intentioned. Who may be educated. Who think that they are your friend. Who are blind to their intolerance that lays so close to the surface. It's hard to see that every day. That's what's so damn difficult. Hard to witness how mankind is. I wish I could be blind to the intolerance of others. How do you do that? I could take alot of drugs, meth for instance. I could put on a latex cowboy outfit and dance all night. I could jump off a bridge. I could stay so far away from everybody that you didn't even know I existed. Which of those is the healthy choice? Which would make you proud to be my friend?

You say you're "quoting guys like Dan Savage and other Seattle staffers." without a hint that there's something wrong with that. Where's the "quote"? Which guys like Dan Savage are you quoting? And what is a Seattle Staffer?

I have read Dan Savage. He is harsh on gay men who willfully spread the AIDs virus. I agree with him. I have yet to read where he paints "most" gay men that way. He's always been very certain to not do that.

I don't understand what your point is. You seem to be saying that gays are dangerously self centered and hedonistic, and you don't want your son to become one. That's sad. I wish I were blind.



P.S. to SelfControl
Flamboyant ones, but who the fuck would date them?
20 years from now people are going to gasp when they realize the amount of homophobia within the GLBT community concerning "flamboyant" and "effeminate" gay men. Just like blacks in the 1950s who looked down on dark skineded colored ppl and "uppity negros", who made it hard for the normal black folks.

 

If someone isn't into dating feminine men, i wouldn't really call that homophobia. For example, i'm attracted to men, not men who act like women..if i wanted a chick I would get with one..
I don't dislike flamboyant gay guys, they just aren't my type. I don't think that makes me homophobic..

I assume this is what selfcontrol meant by his post..

 

Who you are attracted to his who you are attracted to. I have nothing against that. However, the penchant some gays seem to have for objectification, an attitude that some of us wish to scorn, is demonstrated when we say: that person is awful, when what we really mean is: I wouldn't fuck him. We hate him because he has not made himself sexually appealing to us. Straight men do that too.

Here SelfControl states that's it's the flamboyant ones who might be doing meth and having unprotected sex. Flamboyant is a code word for effeminate. The reason for his statement is uncertain. He doesn't say he wouldn't have sex with a flamboyant gay man, he questions anyone who would. By questioning why somebody would want to have sex with a flamboyant gay man, he not only admonishes flamboyant men, but anyone who would associate with them. His statement is the same sort of broad generalization used by IronGoth, which demonstrates a loathing we call Homophobia.

I used the analogy of fair skinned and dark skinned African Americans. Some fair skinned blacks feel superior to dark skinned blacks. Just like some "straight acting" gays feel superior to feminine gays. In the 1950's & 60's the term "uppity" was used to describe people like Martin Luther King Jr. Some Afican Americans at that time also felt MLK was being too uppity. The term was used to squelch any form of dissent and keep blacks in their place. Divide and Conquer. I believe that the word flamboyant is used to similar means. "I am a good gay, not a flamboyant gay, so do you respect me?" "I even hate flamboyant gays, do you love me more?"

flamboyant is a subjective term. Is it "the ones that couldn't blend in with the rest of society," as SelfControl suggests? It's one of those words, like uppity, that when you bring into question it's specific meaning, people shout off: "You know what I mean!"

Mostly, it's used to admonish gay men by example of a few. Flamboyance is, as IronGoth points out, asserting the fact that you are gay. That's something that society can't have. If it were otherwise none of you would be talking about being in the closet.

Not all men you would call flamboyant are on meth or are practicing unprotected sex, as IronGoth and SelfControl generalize. And not all gay men who are on Meth or are practicing unprotected sex are what you might call flamboyant. Throwing these slurs around is little help in addressing the problems with Meth abuse and unprotected sex in the gay community. Actually, it's a hindrance. I wonder if SelfControl is interested in doing something about the problem? I certainly wouldn't want an attitude like that if I needed counseling for Meth addiction or if I was attending "Men Who Wear High-Heels Anonymous."

For the record, most ppl think I am straight, though I don't know that I'm straight "acting." My partners have run the gamut of feminine to quite masculine, you might say butch. Right now I'm not attracted to the kind of stone butch portrayed by Heath Ledger in Brokeback Mountain. I have only met that type of man (gay or straight) in a gay bar or seen him in a Western. (Nobody does Butch like a gay man.) But believe me, I won't blame you if you love him.

 

I'll agree that "flamboyant" is often a code word for "effeminate."

It's unfortunate, because many effeminate men are anything but flamboyant. Lots of effeminate men just have a certain softness about them; the word I use in this case is "nelly." These are men who couldn't butch it up if they've tried. We've probably all met at least a few of them.

They're the guys that you figure out pretty quickly. Even people with no gaydar know that they are gay. They probably feel no need to make a big display of their gayness because it seems like everybody knows anyhow. They know they're gay, the people around them know they're gay, and nobody on either side usually makes a big fuss about it.

On the other hand, there are gay men who seem to make a very big deal about their gayness, men who seem to view being gay as a full-time job. These are the flamboyant ones. Some of them are drag queens. Others are just plain loud. As I type this, I think of a guy I know who screamed at me on a street corner downtown once. He yelled out my name and added on something like, "Oh Mary! Where have you been, you ancient whore? Who are all the boys you've been giving it to? Don't pretend you don't know me, you old closet queen...."

It just seems to take a lot of energy to be such a flamboyant gay man, and it seems to be difficult to have a conversation about anything else with them. The man in the example was (and still is) extremely bitter and bitchy, and I tend to associate those characteristics with flamboyance. That may be why flamboyance doesn't appeal to me.

Flamboyance also seems to be a lot of work. All that energy that goes into it makes it seem like an act, like it's somehow not so genuine. That is another reason why I don't respond so positively to it. I'm more comfortable with nelly men, because they seem a little more genuine.

I'm sure there are flamboyantly butch men, but I can't recall of having met any.

At the same time, I've met some flamboyant heterosexuals. They're not people who are flamboyant about being heterosexual, but flamboyant about other things. Think of political activists who seem to turn every conversation into a political discussion and have at least a dozen bumper stickers on their cars. Think of people who are fanatically religious and seem to see you mostly as a potential object of conversion. I'm not comfortable with these people in the same way that I'm not comfortable with flamboyant gay men; as a result, I don't think it's homophobia.

 

How can you call this homophobia? I find them irritating because of their behaviour, not their sexuality. If a straight guy was acting camp and catty all the time, I'd think he was a twat as well.

I'd say linking a personality type with a minority is probably more phobic than anything.

I would also like to point out that with relation to this:

I categorically didn't say that. I may have said that it was more common amongst that type of person, but if I did it was meant in gest, and in reference to the more scene-involved rather than the more effeminate.

Please don't assume that I was using "codewords", it just makes you look rather silly when you accuse me of making crass generalisation.

 

Hey SelfControl and others:

Thanks for your advice. I want to point out how when I posted this a few days ago, I was pretty much in denial about large aspects of my sexuality, and I really was seriously considering trying to force myself into the closet for good.

Up til that point I hadn't really wanted to speak to anyone about my feelings. Even though this is just the anonymous world of the internet, I still feel relieved by being able to talk about being bi (or perhaps even gay). As such, I'll be going to a student organisation for gays soon, and already I feel a bit more optimistic about things. Being able to reconcile one's self with one's orientation is very important: I do not want to spend my life interminably fretting over my identity as I have been doing for the last 2 years (to the detriment of my social life and studies).

Thanks C:

 

good luck

 

C,
I'm glad to hear that you are looking into a group that will offer you support. I don't know which of your questions they will be able to answer but I am sure you will find the understanding you seek. Try to remember that finding out 'who you are' is a lifelong process. At 30 yrs. old you'll say, I wish I knew at twenty what I know about myself now. But the same thing happens at 40, just when you thought you knew everything about yourself, at 40 you'll learn things you wish you knew earlier. Self discovery is never ending.

Being uncomfortable with someone because they are flamboyant is different then using them as a point of reference for derision. That's what straight ppl have been doing to queers forever. You may not approve of flamboyance, but if gays were socially accepted there wouldn't be any flamboyant gays. So it always turns my stomach when it appears the well meaning are suggesting that flamboyance is a measure of what is ill with the GLBT community. I would, likewise, never suggest that Closet Cases are the dregs of GLBT.

 

Mychal: I have a question that I am going to bring up at this gay group that I'm going to meet with. How do I reconcile my persistent gay feelings with my desire to raise my own children and have a family?

I might have deep, ongoing feelings towards guys, but at the same time, I have the natural biological urge to produce offspring. No, adoption will not suffice. Is this an impossible situation?

 

I don't see the problem with reconciling gay feelings and raising a family. You seem like you would be an excellent father. Many gay and bisexual men have raised families. And there are many options for raising a family.

But to be sure, your plan to have a family is not immediate, or is it? I gather you will have plenty of time to iron out the details. But let me be frank, unless there is some pressing need to produce a blood heir, as in an inheritance, you may find that adoption is the perfect solution. But, I'm probably not the best one to ask, unless your question is a ruse. You see, I am an advocate for adoption. But in some municipalities, the only way for a single man or gay couple to raise a child is if it "belongs" to one of them. Still, It seems like an odd issue to fret at so young an age. I assure you, people have gone over this before. It isn't a new situation.

I will have to guess at what you are asking advice on.

Are you worried about who will bare your child?
If you do marry a man, you may find a surrogate mother. Who knows, it could be a sister to your husband or one of his relatives who doesn't want to raise the baby on her own. You may co-rear the child with a best friend. You know, people have done this before. If you are intent on raising a family, it will come to you at the proper time, I have faith in that. Another resort in America is a surrogate mother who has no interest in the child or a limited interest. This is like arranging an adoption. If you are worried about insemination, there is the good old turkey baster and more practical methods.

Are you worried about finding a husband?
You will find that there are gay men who wish to settle down and raise a family. Also, many successful families are raised by a single parent. It is difficult, but not impossible.

Right now, you strike me as someone who has just stubbed his toe. A multitude of emotions are playing against each other and each step you're likely to take will surely touch off some tender spot. Have patience and give yourself the benefit of the doubt. Things will sort themselves out one by one.

Like I said, you seem like you will make a concerned and wonderful father, that tells me that your situation is not impossible, but rather, blessed from the start.

 

Well, I have a big update.

Out of the blue, my dad told me how he didn't care if I were gay or straight, and how he thinks I'm a great person regardless. It was nice to hear this, after almost 3 years of a poisoned relationship. He said that he was going to stop pressing me about my sexuality, and that he was going to respect my privacy. He has shown himself to be very understanding, and I let him know that.

One odd thing though: I didn't feel emotional about it at all. My dad was very warm about the whole thing and so I should've been able to reciprocate the feeling. I did my best to show him how happy I was, but inside I was feeling indifferent about it. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not.

In order to deal with all of these family problems for the last few years I have subscribed to stoic philosophy, which preaches emotional separation from the world. Apparently this has worked because now, whenever I am faced with anything, whether it is sad news or heartfelt reconciliation, I have no change in my feelings. I still have my initiative and my motivation, but I seem to have no emotional expression. Maybe this "empty" personality I have is a symptom of clinical depression.

Nevertheless I am thankful that my dad made the move to strengthen our relationship. Like I said before, he has been there for me 90% of my life, and now it's good to know I can count on him still being there.