UN set to vote on Israel barrier

The wall is a terrible solution - but it is a solution. I would like to think that an idealistic resolution can be met, but ultimately there needs to be some concept of a land treaty to make this happen. It does suck that people have to lose their private property for public reasons, but its life. You know how many americans lose their homes in our own country everyday because of imminent domain laws? more than you think

The amount of times that eastern europe has been sliced and diced into seperate countries or different borders over the last 50 years because of fighting and for the main reason of stopping the fighting is countless. The situation in Isreal is no different. Isrealis do awful things, Palestinians do awful things, the US does awful things.

As Robert Frost once said, "good fences make good neighbors"

I wish there was another way to establish the peace in this region, but I don't see it happening any other way.

 

The Occupying Turks and Britons did not deny the private ownership of land, nor did they drive out the indigenous residents of the land (and numerous towns and settlements there were where Arab muslims and jews lived side by side in peace prior to the successive waves of Central and Eastern European Zionists which began at the turn of the 20th Century) and summarily level and bury all trace of the original topography of the land from North to South and East to West to erect a revisionist lie of "a land without a people for a people without a land".

Yes Sir Rubin, I do measure the attrocity of the creation of the modern state of Israel - a state which even the orthodox jewry of the early 20th century condemned for its wholly atheistic foundations and entirely ideologically and militaristically driven methodologies - as morally similar to those acts which have relegated other indigenous peoples to the ruins of history, for like those earlier acts the creation of modern Israel is rooted in an imperialistic socio-political mindset best left in the 19th Century in which it was conceived.

I hold Israel to account as should any and all morally consistent and intellectually honest individuals precisely for its decades long demonstration of total disregard for the rule of law, the rights of man, and social justice called for by the very religion it disingenuously uses to claim some ancient birthright.

As much as I would assail any man who dared suggest that the Holocaust never happened, I assail Zionists who have themselves fabricated and (through sustained and incremental PR and political machinations over the past century) sold a false history of Palestine to justify wholesale barbarism by a people whose own ethnic and linguistic roots are neither indigenous to the region nor in point of fact Semitic in any way shape or form. Of course you need not accept that from me, listen to what is said on that very point by a professor at Tel Aviv University itself...

There is no legitimate ancient claim for a people whose ethnic origins are Turko-Slavic (or more rightly Khazari) transplanting themselves by force and through a combination of ethnic cleansing and forced dispossession of rightfully and legally owned land by the native inhabitants. Such has come about only through the guilt ridden political sell out of the Palestinians by the international community and more important the US (without whose constant funding, at grievous cost to US taxpayers, Israeli economy would indeed collapse) in guilt-ridden reaction for failing to stop the holocaust.

Why should any single ethnic or religious group be allowed to forcibly evict the rightful owners of a land to erect a racist and exclusivistic state in which even Arab Jews and Christians do not enjoy the full breadth of rights as those of their Ashkenazi neighbours? The answer is they should not.

The only real and lasting solution is not a token and non-contiguous hand me down state (read enclave) which only further reinforces the century old lie of the zionist right to Israel, but an open, conciliatory SINGLE state for all peoples - both indigenous as well as imported over the decades - to live with equal rights side by side.

But this wont happen so long as Israelis cling to both an outdated imperialist era ideology as well as the oft demonstrated "victim" mentality which they have soaked for every ounce of international PR and political value and continue to do so to deaden all public debate and scrutiny in their brutal political aspirations for the reclamation of "Eretz Israel" (Greater Israel).

 

I agree with you Lick, but punishing Israel now isn't going to solve any problems. The people who live there now aren't first generation imperial zionists, they're the children of first generation imperial zionists. They haven't done anything wrong except be born into one of the most volatile situations on Earth. The people who established the state of Israel are either dead or too old to punish. You really think that Jews and Muslims can live side by side in equality? I'd like to believe that, but it's not possible. And it's the Arabs' fults as much as the Jews. Even if Israel tore down the wall, gave full citizenship to the Palestinians, and welcomed people of all creeds and colors, the PLO would still bomb the fuck out of the Jews until they are "driven into the sea" as one of the PLO leaders (can't remember who) eloquently stated.

I say give full independence to Gaza and the West Bank, and then let them build all the goddam walls they want around their territory. We can argue talk about how they got there and why they shouldn't be there all we want, but the fact is they are there and they aren't leaving, so we have to think in the now, not the past. As for Jerusalem, that's a little trickier. I haven't come up with a possible solution for that yet.

 

When the land was divided in 1948, by a humilated British army, Arabs were the first to attack. Isreal has had to fight war after war in order to hold onto thier claim for a tiny strip of land in the desert. Israel may have been built on Arab towns, but had Israel not won thier first war, Arab towns would have been built on Israeli towns.

 

Sorry GA, but your post is utterly illogical. First off, the Zionists had NO rightful nor historic claim to begin with (as demonstrated above). None that had any legitimacy other than some sense of misplaced guilt by the then British and US governments. The fact that there WERE countless EXISTING towns and villages puts lie to the claim of "a land without a people" and thus, NO arab towns would have been built on "Israeli" land, since it was not Israeli land to begin with.

Max, I believe that if modern Israel would account for its true roots and come clean with the arab people whom it has utterly violated since its founding (and for which, as un PC as you may lambast me for being, I uphold the right of the arab populations to have fought every war they fought against a non indigenous people and ideology invading and dispossessing them of their rightful property) the Palestinians would be more than ready (as demonstrated by numerous instances of extensive concessions being offered to Israel to secure peace) to co-exist peacefully with equal opportunity for all.

Tell me how little legitimacy you would argue any citizen of the US would have to fight back against a superior (and superior backed) force invading our towns and cities and driving out the rightful owners to establish a wholly separate state entity on racist and exclusivistic principles? How bout we give the Sudanese the state of California simply because they suffered a horrendous genocide?

No, a single state would be perfectly viable and more socially just in the present irreversible context than a bogus charade of a neighbouring state with no geographic continuity possible thanks to Likhudnik manipulations, land grabs, and the infernal wall.

The PLO and all other militant organisations would have no further grievance if a full reconciliation policy of public accountability were made by Israel, aknowledging that they themselves have long sought to wipe the historic record clean of their own terrorism and racism. Something that they still refuse to do since a socially just peace is not what they support, but one which allows them to take whatever they wish (including rights to the lions share of the water in the region) and leaving the scraps to those they have always viewed and treated as dogs (otherwise known as the Greater Israel policy).

The PR machine of Israel actually loves the suicide bombing since it provides it with constant fodder to reinforce its "eternal victim" facade in Western corporate media and thus ensure constant financial and military support and supply. This status quo relationship with the West is utterly parasitic and economically infeasible in the long run, especially as the US economy continues to implode as well.

You cannot have a solution until the main protagonists of the conflict come clean and deal truthfully both with the public record (i.e adhere to the same international law to which it (like the Washington) demands others adhere) and with the people who's unresolved grievance has been ignored and indeed villified repeatedly. No solution based on the maintenance of a lie can ever be successful, as much for Palestinians as for any American who would readily take up arms against an affront to his person and property.

 

Thier were Jewish towns scattered all over Israel Lick. Regardless, Has there ever been a palestinian state? No, and I hope there is.

 

Well its really Israel's desicion... and they made the wrong one, so I hope the UN tells them to knock it off. They will anyway though. Walls don't work people...

 

Public slayings of Hamas leaders does!

 

Lick, you have good points.

Yet, you can say that Israel has no historic claim to the land a million times. The issue is that it is already there, and it ain't a-movin.

We can get into a discussion... resembling the ones in the America Attacks forum Israel thread, yet what would be the point, even if you succesfuly establish that Palestine has all rightious historic claim to the land, it does not change anything.

Even if we suppose that Israel "conqoured" the land, even if they bloody camew and murdered thousands of Palestinians (which didn't happen, but, I am stating an "if"), then it still would make no difference on today's situation. The people are already there, the land is settled, and it is already the biggest agricultural turnaround in world history. The Israelis turned a peice of desert into one of the greenest countries in the world. We have the best agricultural technology in the world. Israel has showed so much progress in itself, and has contributed to the progress of mankind in so many ways as well, sadly, because of its neighbors, it is mostly a militaristic contribution with weapons technology.

Palestine, on the other hand, didn't do shit for the world. Israel is a great exporter of food, technology, etc. Palestine doesn't do anything.

Just a point.

Other than that, like Max said, the two ethnicities cannot possibly live together because of religious moral differences. Plus, the terrorist organizations (Hamas, Jihad, PLO, etc), have sworn to destroy the state of Israel... that is the shitter, no matter how much land Israel gives, or how much it offers, the terrorist organizations would be there...

How can you say that Israel likes the suicide bombings? I think it's the other way around, Western Media clearly portrays Palestine as the "poor and innocent" side, which is why most people who know nothing of the subject (like Mui) blindly support the palestinian cause. The Israeli government is not dumb enough to like suicide bombings because of media propoganda which doesn't, never will, and never has worked (As the UN resolution shows). Plus, you cannot say that Israel use it in excuse to attack Palestine, because I can just as easily say that the Palestinians use the Israeli attacks on terrorists as an excuse to murder innocent civilians with their suicide bombings.

 

Bitch about the source all you want, but numbers are numbers.

http://www.palestinercs.org/crisistables/table_of_figures.htm

 

Do you truly expect us to believe that such a biased organization as the "Palestine Red Crescent Society" will have the right info.

Give me a break, find us a link from a global source, and then we shall look at the numbers.

 

Oh come on! THE ONLY reason Isreal has the agriculture it has today is because most of it came from Palestinian land that was STOLEN from the families that had farmed it for generations, and it's still going on.

You can repeat that Palestinians want to wipe Israel out, when in fact the opposite is taking place at this very moment. Blame the victim and pass Isreal's guilt on to those it is persecuting. That's like saying the Holocast was the fault of European Jews. Please! Talk about blindly supporting a cause.

You are right though, terrorists DO use Israeli attacks on innocent Palestinains as an excuse to carry out bombings on innocent Israelis. So who should take the first step in stopping the violence then.

Israel is armed to the teeth against rocks and small arms. Now their new weapon is this wall. It wouldn't have been so bad if they had just placed it where it was supposed to go, but in true Israeli fashion they took the opportunity to make Palestinians suffer even more.

The truth of the matter is that Israel needs to get out of the occupied territories, and leave Palestinians alone to build their own country in peace. I said in a post some time ago that Arafat was on his way out at the time of the uprising and didn't have much support from his own people. I also said that Sharon had given him back that support and power by holding him hostage in his Ramallah headquarters. Seems that support has waned again and he is probably about to be ousted by his own people. Nobody was really ever behind him and if Isreal would just shut the heck up about him attending this and that and let Palestinians decide for themselves they won't have to worry about him at all. Blame him for whatever you want, he hasn't had a say in anything for a long time.

The land was settled, and the people were there, but that didn't stop Israeli terrorists from taking it and leveling towns when they felt like it.

You say you are an Israeli citizen. Then do your homework and stop buying all the party lines you keep passing on. You sound like some advertisement for Israeli immigration.

Ever notice how just when there seems to be some small hope of peace, one side or the other does something to shatter it? It's like a bloody game of pong

 

That is a global source, it's the RED CROSS. Smarten up.

 

give me a single organization that isnt biased at all... show me a single global source? Neither exist... you just dont like the fact that its called palestine red crescent society.

just because somethings biased doesnt mean its completely false.. when somethings biased it means the people who wrote it had an attitude for or against whatever they were talking about and showed it in their writing... thats what bias is... its not having completely fraudulent statistics and numbers, thats something else.

 

isreal is a racist state trying to keep non jews off jewish land. your an isreali so your opinion is expected to be biased and i don't blame you for having it. but seeing as im non isreali and non palestinian i've had a chance to look at the situation from a less biased prespective...and while i don't advocate all of the palestinian actions taken thus far, i see a lesser evil in palestine than in isreal.

 

Dangermoose are you saying that Honduras is in Israel? Neither province is evil... just way too overzealous.

 

No, Israel has developed agricultural systems which were necesary to cultivate the land which was a desert beforehand. Israeli citizens dried the ponds, got rid of malaria, etc... read your history books.

The opposite is taking place? How so? By actually giving palestinians land?

Israel IS taking the first step, it's building the wall. It is a barrier from violence.

I agree, Israel needs to get out of the territories, and that is what it's doing right now, and it's making sure that it stays so. The Palestinian people are peaceful, the terrorist organizations aren't, and the wall is a necessety for protection from the terrorists.

Arafat is the leader of a terrorist organization, all he ever did was steal money from his own people. How can you be so blind as to support him?

Yet you are right, it is like a game of pong, and with the wall, it will be harder for the ball to pass from one side to the other...

Believe me, I have done way past my homework...

 

A racist state? Arabs make up a fair percent of the population inside Israel, plus there are bloody thousands of immigrant workers from Asia and Africa in Israel... Do not speak without knowing.

My opinion is not biased, it's in support of Israel, with an open mind. I acknowledge that what the Israeli government did in some cases was wrong, yet the wall is right.

You see the situation from a less biased perspective, but also from a less informative and more ignorant perspective. If you have never been there, or at least been in close contact with people from there (like Mari), you have no true say in the subject... all of your info is from the (biased) media.

 

Mari, the Palestinian land wan't stolen. It was captured as a spoil of war from the Arab Israeli wars, which the arabs started the DAY after Israel was founded. It would probably be better for Israel to give up the land... but its much more complicated then that.

 

We can argue over who did what, who went where and who slept with who as long as we want to, but it doesn't change the way things are now. Like I said before, the two religions can't live side by side peacefully because of their great differences, and organizations like the PLO have sworn to "drive the Jews into the sea." Think in the now, not the past. If Israel gives the West Bank and Gaza full independence and comes to some kind of a compromise over Jerusalem, they'd be free to build barriers to their hearts content and nobody will care. Then at least the two sides can agree to disagree, and not have to kill each other over land.