Politics, to do something or not to do something?

I have been asked how I would "propose to "oppose" the elites in such significant mass to undo their mechanisms of control and ensure a more broadbased, informed and participatory democratic future?"

As I see it there are basically two ways to change things politically - reforms or revolutions.

Reforms are usually slow and plodding there usually is openly debatable policies and programmes that have goals.

Revolutions are usually fast and furious, but are unpredictable and hard to control, often because the people involved have different opposing and even secret agendas.

The person that asked the question seems to reject both these paths to change and instead seems to want people to do nothing (or little) in the hope that some future natural catastrophe will bring about the conditions for change.



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To me any system can be altered or deconstructed and rebuilt through either of these methods but because of the uncertainty of revolution I must admit to preferring slow boring reform. Which means getting involved in politics, campaigning, voting, and maybe even standing for election.

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So what do I think the US needs to change? Here are a few things off the top of my head.

Get money out of politics

Increase taxes on rich individuals and corporations

Join international bodies to plug tax evasion.

Regulate media companies (break them up and give licencing priority to community groups or co-ops)

Move away from a militaristic society

Use the money from above to build a social infrastructure society.

Scrap the present constitution and re-write one for the 21st century (allowing PR and international co-operations)

All these would in my opinion would work toward diminishing the influence of the wealthy elite.

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I’m sure I’ll say more but for now what do you think, do you want to try and change things for the better or do nothing and hope the changes that happen are ones you want?

 

You want to propose your manifesto, do so. But don't prove yourself to be as snide a twit as PB and the other forum trolls by presuming your personal interpretations of what Ive said are valid.

I never said I rejected violent revolution. On the contrary, I have said, either violent revolution or the collapse of the system by its own economic abuses would be the only way to eradicate the mechanisms of control presently safeguarding elite control.

Now, if you cannot read what I wrote as I have written it, quite succinctly and clearly, then I suggest you refrain from quoting me at all, thank you.

 

All these and more I agree with Balbus, but then these can only be realised when those who make the policies are not the hand selected, corporate-backed and corporate-serving lackies that presently define the prevailing order.

How are you going to do this when those powerful interests, media, military, etc. will deny you the necessary nationwide podium (as they did all but the typical Dem/Repub candidates whom they had pre selected to play their parts in the electoral charade). Moreover, with such powerful interests (and I truly wonder if you even understand how the legislative process even works in Washington) filling K-street and from there virtually every seat meant for the public in every Congressional committee hearing, where will you find sufficient masses of willing citizens to force the removal of these corporates from the process? How will you survive to do so should you even manage to appear on their proverbial radar screens when they have enough pull to have you arrested on any trumped up charge or silenced with a bullet to your brain?

If all you wanted was a list of coulda/woulda/shoulda's Ill could give you dictionary full. But that isnt an answer as to HOW you plan to achieve these ends.

 

My dear Lick

I do read your own posts?

You say - You want to propose your manifesto, do so. But don't prove yourself to be as snide a twit as PB and the other forum trolls by presuming your personal interpretations of what Ive said are valid.

I never said I rejected violent revolution. On the contrary, I have said, either violent revolution or the collapse of the system by its own economic abuses would be the only way to eradicate the mechanisms of control presently safeguarding elite control.

Now, if you cannot read what I wrote as I have written it, quite succinctly and clearly, then I suggest you refrain from quoting me at all, thank you.


But do you remember saying

For my part, I have already stated my lack of any confidence that sufficient public awakening will occur in my lifetime to make any "revolution" possible, certainly not on the basis of information alone. The corporate media blinders have been in place for too many generations to believe that the American public would rise up against the very system which has been incrementally and systematically dispossessing and disenfranchising them until and unless the petrodollar economy itself collapses (which i and many others envisage within the next half century).
Post 66 - LOOSE CHANGE: New 9/11 documentary receives media coverage

http://www.hipforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2124604#post2124604
(my bold)

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You are not saying violent revolution OR the collapse you are saying you don’t think the American people will arise UNTIL the collapse.

Maybe you should read what you write?

 

“How are you going to do this when those powerful interests, media, military, etc. will deny you the necessary nationwide podium”

Oh Lick

More defeatism more despondency.

You’re like some moody adolescent –

“Oh its just not worth it”

“It too difficult”

“What’s the point”

I just think we should try and lessen even neuter the disproportionate influence of wealth, you seem to be wanting to hand them everything they want on a plate, because you think it’s too much trouble to even try and oppose them.

I say ‘lets try’ and you say ‘why bother, let’s just hope a collapses comes some day”

With that kind of attitude, do you really think you’ll be bothered to do anything even if a collapse even did happen?

 

So do I, but without violent revolution or the pending economic collapse HOW do YOU think you can neuter it on a sufficiently broad level to eliminate its control over society??

Incorrect. They already HAVE everything on a plate, thats the bloody point! lol. Its you who seems the petulant adolescent who refuses to see the reality of the system for the forest of your utopian ends.

Incorrect again, I never suggested remotely that it was too much trouble to oppose them, I oppose them constantly, but with full understanding that unless others around me follow suit in sufficient numbers to comprise a revolution, I can but scratch the surface of their well entrenched aparatus.

Obviously you want to ignore present reality and if that keeps you happy do so. But dont suggest that others whom you know nothing of are "inactive" because they recognise the prevailing sloth and smugness of the general populace overall.

The very act of continually attempting to provoke people to do more than rely on tabloid sanitised drivel for their understanding of what our leaders are actually planning and perpetrating behind the rhetoric is considerable activity and frought with constant frustration.

You carry on doing whatever you do, its clear their is an unbridgeable conceptual gulf between our views and its become far too circular a discussion for my taste.

Cheers

 

Yes but how? Surely you're not referring to your heroic efforts at HipForums?

Again... do you consider warning people on HipForums about the CIA/Mossad 9/11 conspiracy to be "considerable activity" that is "frought with constant frustration"?

 

Get money out of politics- agreed

Increase taxes on rich individuals and corporations-agreed

Join international bodies to plug tax evasion.-sure

Regulate media companies (break them up and give licencing priority to community groups or co-ops) - while i am against the domination of news by corporations, i am also aprehensive of any move by the state to restrict or regulate the flow of information.

Move away from a militaristic society- and get our asses stomped by china by mid century? i agree that millitarism isint a good thing, and i think the us should stop being world police, but at the same time we must maintain a strong millitary to counter balance the increasing power of the PRC.

Use the money from above to build a social infrastructure society.- as long the money is wisely spent, im all for it

Scrap the present constitution and re-write one for the 21st century (allowing PR and international co-operations) -could you explain to me whats wrong with the old one?

 

Balbus seems to believe that ultimate power lies with the government and its elected officials, when in fact the government and its elected officials are all paid off and working for the multinational corporations and their interlocking Elite. How does Balbus plan to get to the root of the problem, which is the international, London-based Rothschild/Rockefeller banking cartel, to stop the corruption from where it begins?

Balbus talks about all these things like there is a solution to be found within government, when the overwhelming majority of politicians who get elected to higher office are dedicated not to the people, but to the multinational corporations and central bankers they are really working for.

Balbus must think governments are made up entirely of long-haired, peace-loving, bleeding heart idealists who think the same way as him. He has not a clue. Not the foggiest!

Why are so many people this naive?

Balbus thinks the U.S. Constitution is outdated and should be abolished. Well, I guess he has more in common with George W. Bush than he probably thought. But who is Balbus to say what Americans should do? This isn't his country. And why doesn't he ever mention his own country, which is every but as corrupt as the U.S.?

If anyone thinks the U.S. is turning into a Orwellian police state (which it is), they need go no further than to London. England is the most surveilled country in the world. Why does Balbus never talk about this? Or is he like most - especially Europeans - who believe the government is their daddy and will always be there to protect them and guide them through the storm?

It would seem to me that Balbus believes that governments should be entitled to unlimited power. This is a scary prospect.

Even scarier, many other people believe the same thing.

Balbus talks about regulating the media. But how do you do this when the media is owned and controlled by the same military-industrial complex that owns and controls the government? In the U.S., our media is owned by no more than FIVE corporations total. If you have a government that is essentially controlled by the multinational corporations, and this government's top leaders are all bought and paid off by these same multinational corporations, why would the leaders be working in favor of the people over those keeping their wallets fat and their egos inflated?

The views Balbus has are not only naive, but very dangerous. Balbus clearly supports international law (ie: world government), yet claims his beliefs go against the Elite. If the Global Elite are all in favor of world government, and Balbus supports international law, how can he possibly say he is working against them?

The U.S. Constitution was designed to prevent this sort of thing. To prevent the consolidation of power into the hands of an international, elite governing body. Is it any surprise that George W. Bush believes the Constitution is "nothing but a goddam piece of paper" (his very own words)?

Balbus, like many people, have naively bought into the globalists' fairy tale that world government is good. That it will end pollution and corporate greed. That it will unite the world into perfect harmony. Does Balbus even utilize a single synapse to question who is behind these lies, and what the agenda is behind those telling the lies? Does he not see that he is being duped by the rich and powerful he is supposedly so much opposed to by his inability to think critically?

The New World Order chieftains couldn't have a better friend in people with the same useful idiot mentality as Balbus. Balbus opposes the U.S. Constitution (as do the globalists), and favors an international governing body (as do the globalists). Either Balbus has been duped, or he is consciously being disingenuous?

Most likely the former.

 

Lick

So do I, but without violent revolution or the pending economic collapse HOW do YOU think you can neuter it on a sufficiently broad level to eliminate its control over society??

The problem is that you seem to be telling people to do very little or nothing until this collapse - you hope will turn up some day - happens. You then hope that this collapse will cause so much suffering (and presumably death) that the people will rise up in a revolution and you then hope that it turns out to be a progressive revolution and then that this will hopefully bring into being a progressive system.

That is a lot of wishful thinking.

But in the meantime – while people wait for this hoped for event – you seem to recommend that it is not really worth doing anything to oppose the elite so people should just sit back and let them gain more wealth and power.

But people shouldn’t worry because you believe a collapse is coming, that will change everything.

Do you know what this reminds be of?

A religion.

One of those religions that has sold out to the establishment the ones that tell people not rock the boat, to ‘render unto Caesar’ and all that. Don’t do anything now they tell people just wait and sometime in the future there will be a ‘Judgement day’ (the collapse). Only then will all the bad people (the elite) be cast down and all the good people (the ones that follow Lick) will be lead into the promised land of a progressive system.

But to me this kind of crap held back generations of people before they realised that they had been conned and began actually opposing the wealthy elite. It was the kind of rubbish that got religion dubbed “the opium of the people”.


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You say that you are “continually attempting to provoke people” but to do what?

Not to vote

Not to oppose the elite because it’s useless

Do little or nothing but wait for some collapse?

That’s doesn’t sound like you are working for change it sounds more like you are trying to stop people from working to change things.

 

I think people should oppose however much they can those that would hold up making this world a better place for everyone. Vote, campaign, and demonstrate.

I cannot give people a comprehensive plan because every situation is different.

Basically you find a political party that you most agree with and then you vote for it and /or offer to help in some way.

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Here are a couple of books I found on Amazon US, I don’t know if they are any good (if anyone knows or know of better please say) but if might be a start and its better than doing nothing.

The Activist's Handbook: A Primer Updated Edition with a New Preface (Paperback)
by Randy Shaw
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0520229282/102-2000724-5965749?v=glance&n=283155

Organizing for Social Change: Midwest Academy : Manual for Activists (Paperback)
by Midwest Academy
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/092976594X/ref=pd_bxgy_img_b/102-2000724-5965749?_encoding=UTF8

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I suppose I’m most against the bull shitters that claim that nothing can be done because ‘the man’, ‘the system’ or whatever is just too strong and powerful.

The ones that tell people to do nothing or next to nothing, the ones that say it ain’t worth the trouble, that it’s better to do nothing than to even try.

They to me are as much an enemy of the people and a better world, than the wealthy elite.

 

I think that after all that time berating poor Lick, you could come up with something better than

This is supposed to be more impressive that what poor Lick has offered?

 

Oh my dear Point

One moment you are berating me for my post being too long and detailed the next you berate me for them being too short.

You’re sooooo contrary

 

But seriously Point

One thing is that I’m trying to get a discussion going and the other is that it is actually that simple, the main thing is getting involved, that’s not complicated.

Of course you might look around and not find any political group that fits in with your thinking and that’s where thinks might get harder, like having to start up your own group and become a candidate yourself.

 

You got me there.