How to Deal with Gays who Spew Mysogyny?

On a number of occasions Ive been caught in a social situation where Gay Men are being extremely mysogynistic (hatred for women) and have found myself unsure of how to confront them.

Just to put it in a perspective, I have hung out with a lot of different types of 'straight' guys and heard pretty much most of the best and worst 'locker room talk' .. and believe me, working in this one steel factory there was some pretty rude dudes who could take the 'women bashing' jokes pretty far!
Having said that, I cant think of too many guys who are rude about women. Sometimes you get the 'sick pig' guy (like a few factory guys) but generally most guys are actually pretty 'sheepish' and even when they are not - its a lot of 'false bravado' and goofy innuendo:
"yaaa.. my girlfriend just nags and I ignore her and Im thinking 'too bad bitch cuz Im watching Hockey"
(other guys pretend to laugh like they know it)
Those sorts of 'derogatory' comments.

Now, having said that let me tell you what is a much harsher crowd when it comes to Mysogyny: Ladies only Tables!
When I worked in a mostly female workplace environment I would sometimes find myself sitting in the corner of the lunch room while a 'Gal Chat' would ensue.
Yikes!
When women decide to take apart another women it can be vicious. I mean, I heard more 'woman-hating' from the women than I have EVER heard from a group of dudes.
I was often the one going 'Whoa.. lets not get carried away people' and trying to tone it down or diffuse the slander and hatred with some humour or something!
'Gal Sex Talk' is generally much much more sexually demeaning and explicit than any 'guys locker room talk' I have ever heard too but thats another story.
Women here who have been in these situations know what Im talking about when I mean tearing other women down.
Once I protested and mentioned that because they were women they should be 'pro woman' and the response was "Oh.. Women are fuckin evil and trust us we know because we are women!"
Comments like that.

Having said that..

NOTHING COMPARES to the conversations and raw, unfiltered and downright hateful woman-bashing I have been privy to with groups of Gay Guys.
See, you gotta understand that in these circles, there is usually one or two women friends.
These are sometimes refered to as 'Fag Hags' (and that is the nicest thing the women hear about.)

On a few occasions I was left behind and blending in as one of the gang I was just stunned.. and horrified at the enthusiastic turns taken against the women or women in general!
VICIOUS and downright cruel and may I say ultra-disgusting 'venom' against women starts and at the time actually amazed me in taking it to levels I never even knew existed!
Snide comments, snipes, burns and downright mean-spirited slurs and backstabs that I couldnt believe a person could think up!
I cant even repeat a tenth of them but what starts as cruel mocking of womens hair, makeup and then leads to jokes about their 'fat bags' slopping off their chests (probably dripping sour chunky milk anyways) and then 'cottage cheese jokes' about how sick their thighs looked and eventually moves on to very cruel and explicit rips on 'menstruation issues' and ways of describing vaginas that make them as the sickest and most disgusting accidents ever created.

I wonder if there are any gays here who do not approve of the vicious mysogyny (women hating) and have found ways to curb or discourage that type of attitude among other gays?

I thought maybe I could mention that their Mothers were women and that they all came from Vaginas but that seemed inappropriate at the time.

So yeah, of course this is not 'every gay' so dont bother being a dork and coming up with a 'rebuttal' in which you ingeniously point out that 'not ALL gays do that!"


People I do NOT need to hear from (but surely will) are:
a) NOT Gay but want to pretend they are some hero helper by auto-renouncing this post.
b) Are 'Fag Hags' (their words) and think they know - but will admit never being around when the women are gone.
c) think they should deny this because its 'politically correct' to do so, even if they know better.

Anyone who knows -knows I know what Im talking about because they will immediately recognise some of what I described as 'Insider Knowledge' and knows what Im talking about.

What would be the proper way to defend women in these cases without it being rejected as a 'Third Positioner' tactic or as Nazism or dismissed as something that kills Matthew Shepard.

Some way to simply communicate that sitting around just assasinating womanhood is 'not cool'?

Suggestions?

 

Thank you for saving me the need to point out that not all gays do that. I'm pleased that you already know. What I will point out is that not all people who do that are women or gay men. I've heard plenty of guys who aren't gay get pretty bad too.

I doubt that there is a "proper way" to defend women in these situations. You can handle it with eye contact, not laughing at alleged "jokes" or changing the subject. You might also want to find a more compatible group of friends.

 

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I can't imagine you, eraz, together in any social situation with a gay man where you weren't being hyper critical. This sounds to me like another ruse to try to shame us. It's just plain rude to palm off your stereotypes at this board.

How is being "extremely misogynistic (hatred for women)" any different with gay men then it is with straight men? It is not. Yet, you try to suggest that gay men are far more misogynistic. I beg to differ.

I've met some truly horrendous straight male misogynists. That movie where the two guys make a bet to date a woman and dump her comes to mind. The locker room banter, that you shrug off as normal, is awful just because it's ubiquitous. I doubt you have ever met as many gay men as I have, but I have certainly met as many straight men as you. You are no one to judge who is worse in this area. From my experience, the amount of misogyny in the straight population far out weighs the amount I have seen in the gay.

Need I remind anyone out there of the gay men who lavish praise and attention and love on women. (Ever see Will and Grace?) And the careers of such woman as Judy Garland, Bette Middler, Madonna, and Cher would be no where if it weren't for the adulation of gay fans. These woman are loved not only because they are talented, but successful in their own right.

Now here we go, trying to decide who's worse to woman and who's better. Gay or Straight men. It's a dumb argument which only divides us. Gay men are mean to women, straight men are mean to women, straignt women are mean to other women. (you forgot lesbians) So, what's your point?

I just can't imagine that you've been privy to that many intimate "Gal Talks."

Your point seems to be that nothing compares to the hatred gay men harbor for women. And you would love it if everybody chimed in and wrote, "Yeah, you're so right! Gay men are awful!!!!" You're at the wrong forum.

You seem to be enjoying the ripping detail, and that belies your intent. You haven't been privy to many intimate conversations with gay men. You're making this all up in order to shame us and create dissent amongst the progressive folks who read these boards.

This whole post seems to have been sparked from previous posts at this forum that derail any kind of misogyny, particularly straight male misogynists and their locker room banter. You ask "are there any gay men who aren't misogynists?" If you knew many gay men you'd all ready know the answer. This is another one of your clever rhetorical questions meant to shame and demean.

You're purpose seems to be two fold. To show how horrid gay men are and to refute any idea that you yourself are a misogynist and therefore you are a moderate. Good job. I'm not buying it.

Listen, you refuse a rebuttal that not all gays are like that before it has even been made, because you wish to shame all gays. That is your point.

a) you are not gay, you would do well to listen to the gentle wisdom of your straight brothers and sisters.
b) Again, you suggest all gay men are women haters, because women aren't around them 24-7 they wouldn't know that -but you do. You should listen to the women who are adored by gay men, you could use their advice. From my experience they tend to be intelligent, loving and very independent women.
c) You are trying to divide again. We know that misogyny exists in many forms. You want us to believe that the misogyny of gay men is more prevalent and worse and you suggest here that anyone who disagrees with you is deluding themselves. You haven't come here to discuss a topic, you have come to disseminate your homophobia and you are terrified that we will disagree with you.

Let me say this, misogyny in all forms is wrong.

The way to deflect misogyny and defend women is not to shame gay men. Misogyny is no different no matter who the misogynist is. It is the same if the misogynist is a straight men, other women or school marms. To suggest it is any different is to demean gay ppl.

To answer your question, you tell the person, who ever it is, that you don't appreciate demeaning comments directed to or about women. Remind them that their mothers sisters and cousins are women. A simple direct response seems to work with reasonable folks.

Which brings me to my point, dear eraz,
I don't appreciate demeaning comments directed to or about gay men. You're Brother, Uncle, the people you work with may be gay and many important figures in history are gay.


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A lot of gay guys have bad experience with women. It's hardly surprising some are misogynistic.

 

Yeah, its funny how there are levels of shock and horror.
I suppose I took the viciousness towards women BY women differently because they are women themselves.
Its kind of like the way someone who is Jewish can make Jewish jokes and slurs but socially its less acceptable for a non-Jew to do the same.
So,
When you come across the women-bashing among the gay men you are really shocked because its much much more vicious and hateful but also because they are speaking of another group.

Personally, I just dont feed into it - but you are in an awkward position because it either the majority or its the ones 'dominating' the mood and conversation.

No, Ive never heard anything close to that among straight guy locker-room type talk. We are talking two completely different levels altogether.
Maybe its something the 'gay community' needs to look at.

btw. Someone mentioned that its mitigated by a gay tendency to worship and laud some female celebs like Liza Minelli or Bett Midler etc.
Well..
There is also a criticism that this demonstrates a tendency towards objectifying women as well.
So, its not necessarily mitigating and Im pretty sure we all agree that if you do one thing right it doesnt 'cancel out' something wrong either.

The hateful and downright mean-spirited slurs against 'Breeders' is another widespread problem in the gay circles and that is just as bad and even more senseless.
At least the gays can argue that they have no need or use for women but in the case of 'Breeders' they need to realise that is how gays are made and where they come from.
Without 'Breeders' and those cows 'shitting out' babies (their words)- then where would Liza Minelli or the next gay guy come from??

 

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A debate on the reasons for misogyny would be more productive then deciding who is worse. I believe the type of Drag Queens that drumminmama talks about are reacting to homophobia, like SelfControl suggests. In my experience, some of the most nasty folks toward me, in their hatred of gay men, have been what I would call Cheerleader types. I would guess that these women have been taught to use sexuality and feminine charm to hook any man they please. Just the fact of being gay (or a drag queen) refutes that notion and they are seriously threatened. I believe that much of the misogynistic things you might have heard a gay man say is backlash reaction to homophobia. The queens you hear it from tend to be loud and boisterous and dramatic. They don't care who hears what they have to spew. So, you'll notice that. What you won't notice are misogynistic straight men who look both ways before they make their derogatory comments out of the corner of their mouth. And they will deny they ever said it or heard it, too.

Now, how about the sick man who is lustful and desires control of all that he sees and will do what ever he has to do in order to dominate a woman. The type of man who would beat his wife or girlfriend to a pulp and then repeatedly rape her.

The point that eraz makes in his opening comment is that gay men are far worse at their misogyny then straight men.

Now what do you think -which type of misogyny is worse? Having a skinny drag queen tell you that your pussy smells like a can of rotten cat food, or having an emergency hysterectomy because the man you loved beat and raped you?

And you can't tell me that the boyfriend in the above scenario was receiving his encouragement to misogyny at a drag show. But the typical, women-hating, locker-room banter that eraz casually dismisses, may have made him think that all men felt the way he did.

Like I said, all misogyny is wrong. You would have to ask the victims which is worse.

perhaps if it wasn't a third position tactic it wouldn't be rejected as one.

Straight men look at women as objects, specifically sex objects. Gay men who idolize certain woman are looking at them as being exceptionally talented and gifted. Your attempt to call this objectifying is another one of your attempts to demonize gay men by turning a comment made about straight men back at gay men. I don't agree. While looking at a certain woman as a godess, may be placing false expectations on her, it isn't treating her like an object.

Another of your brilliant retorts, you are losing the argument, because it's based on crazy homophobia, so you try a different attack on gay men. You won't stop until everybody in this forum is as hateful as you are. It is people like you that turn many GLBT against straight society.

 

Moral Relativism.
That explains a lot.

 

Enh? I was kind of saying that I find women annoying. In my experience women who know I'm gay want to treat me like a one-dimensional TV show character, and get all peeved when you don't. So if I'm misogynistic towards them, it's with good cause. I also find that a lot of the ways women behave around men seem pretty hard to credit if you don't have to put up with it in order to get your end away.

I would mention, however, that no-one would ever start a similar thread about lesbians hating men.

 

The new Pope sure talks a good game.

 

I can't read Erasmus's posts, but I'm going to take a wild guess and say that this thread is flamebait designed to make gays look bad?

 

lucky guess.

this thread is absurd.

 

typical troll regurgitation.

as others have said "flamebait designed to make gays look bad" as is most all of erasmus70's posts.

 

Oh yes I would.
You know I would!


Is it just me or is Selfcontrol one of the few remaining sincere posters in this forum or what?

 

Oh, so it's working then. And no, I'm anything but sincere, that's why I hardly ever tell you how reprehensible I find pretty much all of your views. That and I just don't see the point.

 

Yes you are, just look at the little bio you filled out:

Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Northampton, UK; for good, this time.
Age: 22
idiot
Posts: 1,762

Haha.. you just did it now!

 

You crack me up, you really do.

See what I did there?

But I managed to go a good 12 hours without saying it. I lost some sleep over it, but I knew it was the right thing to do.

 

Actually, I have heard things like that among straight guys. It seems like it's all a matter of what you've heard and whom you've been around. Maybe it's something that *everybody* needs to take a look at. The idea that it's just a gay guy thing is really offensive.

Once again, it's a matter of what you're hearing and whom you're around. I haven't heard very much mention of heterosexuals at all in gay circles, let alone the term "breeders." I can imagine that there are some heterosexuals who bring out the worst in some gay men through said heterosexuals' contempt and disdain for gay men. This might be what you're picking up on.

 

Æ

 

The only thing I know about you is that you and consistency are strangers to each other. So until you do it, no, I don't know you would.