Is religion "good"?

It doesn't. Perhaps you don't see Libertine's religion (a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith (or even definition 2)) in his name and the words he writes.
Saying "Religion is for weak-minded people" indicates that Libertine's mind condemns itself and his own religion (which includes the tenet "Religion is for weak minded people").

Ok, it'll be over in the "this shits me" thread in the AA forum. I didn't see your last post (over there).

 

Many people brought up so many good points. Especially you, Varuna. It seems you really hit the nail on the head in your first post. But did you realize that what your saying is exactly what the Bible is saying? Let me explain...


Religion - Spirituality = BAD
Religion + Spirituality = GOOD

Someone gave an equation to something like this (sorry can't remember who). The truth is, Religion DID interfere in God's will and message right from the beginning. Props, to the one that pointed out how Jesus dispised religion. It was the Jews very 'religion' that kept them from inheriting God's promise for them.

Mark 7:5 "Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him,Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?
Mark 7:6 "He answered and said unto them, Well hath Isaiah prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoreth me with their lips, but their heart is far, from me.
Mark 7:7 "Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Mark 7:8 "For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots andcups:and many other such like things ye do.
Mark 7:9 "And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God,that ye may keep your own tradition.'

In here Jesus clearly points out that it's useless to keep traditions or do 'religious'-seeming things when you reject the commandments of God. This reminds me of when I used to be a Methodist. We would say these recited prayers, including the Lord's prayer, during the service. What good is it to do this when there is no meaning behind the prayer?

In the Old Testament, God required sacrifice for sin. Blood needed to be shed in order to sins to be forgiven. Jesus, of course, was that sacrfice. But here's the kicker: we're not forgiven unless we accept that sacrifice. The children of Israel were still disobedient to God, despite being His chosen ones, and despite being given commandments and instructions to follow. The problem was that those instructions couldn't change their sinful hearts. So God had a new way planned, that would change their hearts:

Ezekial 11:19 "And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh"

Ezekial 18:31 "Cast away from, you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit:for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

These two verses refer to the coming of Jesus and the gift that He would bring us. For through his death, we are given life. But notice it speaks of the Spirit. This Spirit is that 'spirituality' that so many of you were talking about. It's evident when a supposed 'Christian' lacks this Spirit. The truth is, if a professed Christian does not have the Holy Spirit, then they are not truly a Christian. So, ultimately, (prayers and church services) - (God's Holy Spirit) = BAD, USELESS.

Romans 8:9 "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Jesus spoke to his disciples about this Spirit while he was yet alive.

John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."

John 7:39 "(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

I know I'm skipping around, but let me explain the context of these verses. The first one (26) is Jesus taking to his disciples. They followed Jesus around during His ministry and were active in it, yet they did not fully understand everything they were witnessing. That's why He explained that when they received the Holy Spirit (Ghost) that they would more understand everything and how it fit into God's plan.

The second verse I included because I wanted to point out that the Holy Spirit wasn't available to everyone until after Jesus was glorified (as in, died and then was resurrected). In the Old Testament, God hand-picked people to have the Spirit, but it was not a permanent indwelling. Now, under the New Testament, we have the ability to have this Spirit permanently inside of us, which is more important than following men's traditions through a specific religion!

This is a commandment from Jesus and a prophecy to what we must do to be saved:

John 3:5 "Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,he cannot, enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
John 3:7 "Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."

Here is Jesus commanding water baptism (born of water) and to receive the Holy Spirit. In truth, there is no such thing as a born again Christian in this sense, because if you had not the Spirit, to begin with, you were 'none of his.'

And the story goes on as many know it; Jesus was crucified, and was placed in the tomb. Before He was resurrected, he instructed his disciples to gather in one place and wait for the promise of the Spirit.

Acts 1:4 "And, [Jesus] being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Acts 1:5 "For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence."

And so the disciples did as Jesus said and gathered together on the day of Pentecost to receive the promise, the Holy Spirit. This is the Bible's account of that day:

Acts 2:1 "And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Acts 2:2 "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting."
Acts 2:3 "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each, of them.
Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

Now I mentioned in another post that I am a bonafide Christian because I have been filled with the Holy Spirit with the Biblical evidence of speaking in tongues. I know that religion is pretty much useless, as so many of you agee, IF YOU DO NOT HAVE THE SPIRIT. That's what seperates the true Christian from the non-Christian.

I used to be a Methodist. I didn't have the Spirit. I was about as useless as any other denominational person that follows religion (upholds the traditions of men) yet doesn't have the Spirit (yet denies the commandments of God).

So Peter got up, after he himself had been filled with the Spirit, and explained to those that heard the commotion what was happening. Remember, the audience he was in front of were not only Jews, but the same ones that had cruicifed Jesus and the very SAME ones in front of which he had denied he knew Jesus three times. He was able, through the Spirit, to boldly speak the word of God and fit all the pieces of the puzzle together, just as Jesus said the Spirit would help him do. This is what he concluded his 'sermon' with:

Act 2:33 Therefore [Jesus] being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear."

Notice, this is where I distinctly differ from most mainstream churches. Receiving the Holy Spirit, a must for salvation, is not only an obvious event (meaning you'll know when it happens), but it's something that those people saw and heard (the tongues) as well as something that was able to produce such a change in Peter that he was able to face those same people that he couldn't face right after Jesus' death. The Spirit is POWERFUL stuff! So many listened to Peter and this is their reaction and his commandment (which is what Jesus commanded):

Act 2:37 "Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as, the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 2:40 "And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation."

And that is still our commandment today. That is why religion is useless without the Spirit. True Christians have the Holy Spirit and the evidence following. Then they adhere to the commandments of God (the Bible) more than the commandments of men (specific denominations).



P.S. A little side note (off-topic). Christians, ultimately, should not be political:
Matthew 22:21 "They [The Pharisees] say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's."
I'm afraid theres a bunch of people that profess to be 'christian' out there that are making political statements but missing the entire point. God is concerned with our souls, not trying to force people into 'christian' views by making a big political stink. What makes people Christian, is not changing legislation - it's receiving the Spirit and adhering to God's commandments (the Bible).

 

Yes, Varuna's post deeply influenced me. I read it just before I went to bed and it set of an incredible chain of realisations in my mind. In short, somehow it lead my to realise my tendency to avoid responsibility for my thoughts and actions...a universal truth no?

 

Wow. Thank you Comforted.

And congratulations to Lying in a field for your experience of an incredible chain of realizations. I hope it was blissful.

My Monday morning started off with a smile that made my day.

Peace and Love

 

How can something created (or evolved) be responsible for it's own actions. Either way, the beings thoughts and actions are determined by the forces that have made it.

I was thinking about this a few nights ago. There was a case on Law & Order: SVU. In this case, the defense attorney was arguing that genetic predisposition towards certain acts meant her client was not responsible for his actions.

The way I see it, this is true. But we still want to lock up the defendant, put them in jail, to keep someone with this genetic predisposition out of the population. If someone displays the tendency to act aggressively, society has the right to lock them up to keep them from harming members of the society. It doesn't matter that they are not responsible for their behavior, what matters is limiting their ability to engage in violent behavior against non violent members of society.

Interesting thing about breeding rats: aggressive rats are not recommended for breeding, because they tend to pass the recessive aggression genes to their offspring.

 

good and bad are totally subjective and depend upon one's unique point of view or perspective...


To my point of view, organized religion has been used far too often by those in power as a means of opressing the masses. In that sense, to me, it cannot be seen as a good thing, even if there is some good to be found in it somewhere. The spiritual abuse of the masses at the hands of the world's leaders (both religious and political, or worse, those who are both religious and political, past and present) overshadows any possible good that any individuals might gain from such religions. Individual spirituality, though, that's something totally different. When you find your own path, no matter what path that is, because that is what you believe with all your heart and soul, and not just because someone has told you that is what you should believe, *that* cannot be a bad thing.

 

Yes, I totally agree, but this should never be used as an excuse not to take responsibility for your thoughts and actions. If you are entirely free from the illusion of choice then let me know, but you probably couldn't do this because you'd be dead.

 

Beautifully said mamaboogie.
Your point raises the issue about religion in another way ~ those people who have found the truth of their own spirituality are more often than not subjected to attack or derision by the christian religion and those in it for being heathen, evil, under satan's spell, going to hell blahdy blahdy blah
Yet the teachings of the supposed jesus state that the kingdom of heaven is within each and every individual. That is the outstanding message that turned people away from the organised religion of the time and led to the supposed crucifixion. How odd that even now, those who turn away from the religion and follow the narrow less trodden path are vilified in ways similar to the way the supposed jesus was vilified by the adherants of the religion!

 

Yes.

It is one of the biggest challenges to realize your life is, effectively, your relationship to everyone and everything around you. Everything you say and do, small or great, good or bad, creative or not, has some kind of impact, influence and effect on your relationship with all of this.

Of course, the real balancing act is to be as egoless as possible as you do this.

Peace and Love

 

yet another way that organized religion is oppressive, ain't it? Those in power don't want the masses thinking for themselves, so tehy tell you it's a sin, you'll burn in hell, or it's devil's work, or something equally frightening. Me, the heathen preacher's kid... LOL

 

Responsibility for actions and being mindful of the consequences of actions are 2 different things. Do not claim responsibility, just realise there are consequences to your actions.

I don't have the choice to be free of the illusion of choice. Choices are created within us, they exist, simply as a feeling of different possible outcomes (although there is only one). There is the part of a "choice" that exists within us, and the part that manifests in external reality.