An argument for the non-existance of deity

I share your concern.
They don't call it the "Power of Myth" for nothing!

It's no mere coincedence that these Mythic Religions of ours have a pronounced pre-occupation with Sex and Death.

 

Right on, Libertine.

[I have been slacking on this forum so much...:& ]

To me, to be part of a religion, is to be a slave, to be a target for brainwashing. In the first place, I don't believe in a God, because it's simply something that leaves a bad taste in my mouth...it doesn't FEEL right.

I never CHOSE to not believe, I just never naturally believed the way it was. I was one of those kids who was literally forced to attend church every Sunday with their parents... So, it's not that I don't *understand* it, it's simply that I don't buy into it. My brain is not easily molded as ...a lot of people's are.

I look at all my friends, and see how much they follow in the footsteps of their parents...and when I look at myself, I see how utterly opposite, and against the grain from my parents I am... I have never been one to conform, and shape ideas and beliefs according to what I am taught, but rather to shape them from what I feel settles nicely in my gut. Religion has never settled nicely in my gut.

And as I said before, even if there was some sort of factual proof that a god existed and there was no way for me not to believe it, that instead I *knew* it... I still would not be one to attend church, and throw myself into the arms of organized religion. Just as Libertine has said so many times, in so many ways, it is slavery.

 

All this talk about it is "possible" a god "could" exist.

It is POSSIBLE that the fucking Easter Bunny "could" exist, but is it probable? Do you live your life with this belief?

Lots of shit is "possible" especially when we invent transcendent forms of knowledge just to tickle our fancies with (which there is no evidence for either).

Basically we have a "god" (no evidence) in a spiritual/transcendent realm (no evidence) and now based on some transcendent idea of superior knowledge (no evidence).

It's all guesswork and wishful thinking with NO BASIS WHATSOEVER APPLICABLE TO REALITY.

 

To ants
We are gods. And it is irrelevant if they understand the term or the relationship to us.
Are you saying a species/being with 50,000 years of technology over us, could not be gods to us.?
This is certainlly quite possible.

In fact, probable, unless you think we are the most advanced species/being in the universe.

Well. are we?

Occam

 

Sure, but where is the evidence for it?

But, we are not "intangible, invisible, omni-max" either...and ants can actually detect us (as we are natural).

 

What does an ant know of us?
Yet we can destroy them.
make them pets.
Manipulate their dna.
They detect us?
How?
They detect nothing but our effects on them

We are gods

Occa

 

Please. What a BAD, BAD analogy!

 

why is it a poor analogy?

what is "god"? "god" may very well be natural, and yet "god" because he is unknown yet powerful.
to some intellectually constrained creature, someone more capable could become a god; it's all about perception.

love,

 

why multiply entities unnecessarily?

 

Indeed.

All hail "Prince Parsimony!" ^_^

 

The proof of god's existence is this world. The fact that spiral image exists in all beings is another example. The dna of man is a spiral, the shell of a snail, and the galaxy. The same with atoms rotations. All due to gravity and laws of the universe. Who is to say that there was a world setup and created by accident that is uniform even in its deepest chaos.

The same as above as to below, is the first law of Egyptian Alchemy.
And in this physical world that we live in, do laws just come out of nowhere?
NO someone has to physically think of them, put them togethor and force everything to follow it with an iron fist. Now if that applies to us (below) then how can you say that just by accident, the galaxy, the universe (above) can just be created out of nothing with no supreme mastermind behind it all.

 

The main post was that god/gods cant exist outside of logic. My point is this...

When we define logic, we get "a system of reasoning". If that system is created by a God who itself manifest;s this logic, then that logic itself is going to have flaws, a perfect chaos if you will.

God itself is the unknowable, i see threads posted by atheists and what not saying they disbeleive because it is not evident or our minds cannot perceive it rationally, thus it cannot exist.

A God can exist outside of logic, because it does not know logic, we as humans create logic in order to have a discussion on what can and cannot be. It is this realm of existence the god lives in that is unknown, because it cannot be defined or rationalized. Logic is merely a word that has been institutionalized over thousands of years, yes it has meaning, but only to the human mind. An animal does not recognize logic, it merely exists. But we recognize logic, and try to say a God cannot exist outside of it because we can't fathom this dimension it functions in. We merely try to use words to explain the unknown, when words themselves only have meaning to us.

God itself does not have to have a blueprint or some shape or form. We only see objects with our eyes in this third dimension, imagine what is left to be seen, things that the human eye have not yet discovered. Even still, if we could see this being, it would manifest itself into something recognizable so our brains could fathom it and understand it without going into epileptic shock.

So yes, a God can exist outside of logic because God knows no boundaries, it exists in its own perfect chaos, it knows laws and rules, it creates them for the lower spiraling dimension, but it doesn't mean it has to abide by them. Now as for lesser gods, that is another topic of conversation

 

Wrongo. If that was proof, we wouldn't be questioning it in the first place.

Or maybe, spiral images hint at ... math?

The only thing it proves, is the laws of the universe.

And who said it was created by accident?

Over billions of years and an innumerable amount of changes ... it can be very easily imagined that any world with laws and physics is capable of producing order in seemingly irreducibly complex forms. All it takes is time. Kind of like trying password combinations until one just "works." Except the password is quadrillions of characters long, and you have an infinite number of tries. Eventually, it will be correct.

Does God just come out of nowhere? THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT.

It makes more sense to say "The universe has always existed." than it does to say "The universe was created by a God that has always existed." for which no additional proof exists.

Just because you add God into the equation doesn't absolve you from having to confront the question, "where did ____ ultimately come from?"

Well, considering that everything in this universe is a duality ... when matter is created, so is antimatter ... they are created out of nothingness, and when they touch, they return to nothingness ...

In any case, who physically created God? Who put him together and forced him to be perfect? How can God simply exist without a supreme mastermind behind him?

Your point is circular. It suffers from the same problem that ours does.

 

Math is the universal language, it takes the forms of number shapes and equations. This is proof a god can exist. We do not need to see it to beleive, because what is seeing? People throughout time have beleived in dragons, but we don't see them, does that mean they didn't exist? Maybe they're just lost in the sands of time or some other obscure reason we don't see them.

The point is not seeing to beleive, it is taking what we know as reality and saying something created it. The universe doesn't just create itself over millions of years of trial and error. Yes, it takes millions of years, but do you think that such intricate things as the laws of gravity and quantum physics happen by chance? I dont think so.

Some greater power created the universe, for reasons we have yet to understand, maybe not in our lifetime, maybe in the afterlife? Either way, this entity that created us used math, which is used in basically everything we know in this materialistic world. Math is language of the universe, we see it in forms and shapes. But light is also part of universe. So what if maybe this god is light, it travels in light and exists in light, and can send messages in code, in mathematical form through the cosmos thus enducing creation and planetary evolution.

I'll quote a saying i read somewhere.

Humans are like fish in a pond. We the fish only know what we can see, we see water that we move through, the elements in the pond, and other creatures inside it. But when it rains, the pond ripples and disturbs the pond. The fish (us) has no way to describe this force and we call it something. But one day a fish jumps out of the water, and sees trees and light and everything it has never seen before (this would be the universe). The next day, a human (God) comes in and grabs a fish, and lets him go. This fish tells everyone what happened, some beleive him so dont. But he has seen it with his own eyes and wouldn't lie, because why lie, he gains no benefit only knowledge of what else is out there, but others havent so they cannot beleive him without seeing it themselves. We as the fish, also see these ripples in the pond, in the form of light and sunrays, which are a force from another dimension we cannot explain.

Now I know i kind of strayed off topic, but it makes sense to what this topic has lead to.

 

Who ever said God had to be created physically? The laws of the universe only pertain to what we have discovered so far. Who said God couldn't be manifest by light? Or have been manifested a spiritual energy?

I think denying the existence of a God or saying God cannot exist outside of logic is just another paradox of the human mind.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostic

If it weren't for all the corruption in Europe and all the Inquisitions we wouldn't be thinking this way. We would be learning what all the children who were in Egyptian mystery learned. We would understand, and wouldn't be debating, because there would be nothing to debate about. We would have the "gnosis".

 

Matter and antimatter are not created from nothing. They're created from energy, and when they collide they release energy which creates more matter. It's a little misleading to say that because something changes into something else that it comes from nothing and returns to nothingness... In that case nothing has ever existed because everything is in a state of perpetual change. So I don't exist right now, because I have changed by now? In a way that's true, I guess.

So matter comes from nothing; nothing needs no source, and I can't imagine a way to destroy it (can you?), so it is eternal. The same would go for energy. Given eternity then, it is likely that life will always occur and will have an infinite amount of time/number of opportunities to exist and evolve. Is it really unlikely that by now, after an eternity already, life has evolved to a state of virtual godliness? Energy/nothing isn't confined by our ideas of God, but those concepts aren't unreasonable. Everything is energy/nothing. It can be more or less free; it can possess more or less power/information.

It's cool that there is uncertainty, too. Certainty would limit freedom/creativity.

 

Well it basically comes down the basics. The Yin and Yang, Good vs Bad, Positives and Negatives. But in the laws of mathematical equation, two negatives make a positive. So if we say nothing is 0, how do we create -2? Because something was there before that to create the law that there can be a -2.

People need to realize that the God that created us isn't the same God that created the universe.

 

Wrongo. If that was proof, we wouldn't be questioning it in the first place.

Your the one questioning it, you have to come up with a better answer than that. To alot of people this world itself is a reflection of a higher power. So your answer is WRONGO, and in the future don't say stuff like that. It makes you sound like a prissy, and cut your hair while your thinking of a better answer.

Math, is the language of the universe thats what I was getting it, the repeated spiral pattern found throughout matter is the golden mean. Reefer madness addressed the math topic well I don't really need to go into it.

The only thing it proves, is the laws of the universe.

And who said it was created by accident?

Over billions of years and an innumerable amount of changes ... it can be very easily imagined that any world with laws and physics is capable of producing order in seemingly irreducibly complex forms. All it takes is time. Kind of like trying password combinations until one just "works." Except the password is quadrillions of characters long, and you have an infinite number of tries. Eventually, it will be correct.

Right there you contradicted yourself. Who said it was created by accident?
1. Your explaination is an ACCIDENT. The password combination metaphor you just said IS AN ACCIDENT. I said the laws of the universe aren't.

2. You didn't address what I said about the laws of Alchemy. Do physical laws of society come into being from nothing? Instead you changed it around and said Does god come from nothing?
I was talking about the laws of the universe not god. The reference to the laws of Alchemy, just said As above so below. Applying that to LAW, no law of man comes out of nothing. It has to have a creator and enforcer. I was just appyling this to the laws of the universe via a supercreator light energy.
I suggest you look up Alchemy online. As above so below, is their main ideal. It says if you can transmutate the physical, of course the same laws apply to the ethereal, spiritual, elemental, whatever you wanna call it. Simply it can be just called non-physical. I know your thinking in your pseudo-rational modern western paradigm this is hard for you to fathom. You think if you can't see it or measure it, it doesn't exist. This is where your wrong it is a microcosm, macrocosm. AS ABOVE IS AS BELOW. THERE IS PROOF OF THIS AND IT CAN BE MEASURED. Modern Science refuses to bother with it. Why because it would put those in power out of power, It would drain alot of cash to study, but most important IT WILL CHANGE OUR WORLD. THIS IS WHY THE SECRETS OF SPIRITUAL SCIENCE HAVE BEEN KEPT SECRETS. THIS IS THE OTHER HALF OF THE GREAT WORK, THE STUDY OF ALCHEMY. THERE IS A SPIRITUAL SCIENCE, BUT ITS BEEN UNDER LOCK AND KEY SINCE THE BEGINNING OF TIME. I want to know if you even know the meaning of the word logic.

It comes from Logos which is a greek term meaning a system of reasoning.
However, this is borrowed from the Judaic Idea of the word of god, and his means of communicating with humanity VIA A MEDIUM. Thus leaving us with the term LOGO. A name, symbol, or trademark designed for easy and definite recognition. With its modern meaning being a symbol, like the logo on a hat or t-shirt. Something that stands in the place of something else so alot of information can be processed simply using one picture,word,design etc. Therefore when you say that a god can't exist outside of Logic, its an oxymoron. IT IS THE LOGIC, THROUGH ITS DIVINE LOGOS IT MANIFESTS ITSELF ON THIS PLAIN. WITHOUT GOD YOU HAVE NO LOGIC, LIKE ANIMALS.

But don't hold me to a radical belief like this because I do believe we were physically made by the Annunaki of sumerian accounts, extraterrestrial humanoids using biology physically transmutated us from Apes using science, and genetic engineering. This Allmighty god your speaking of is an Amalgam of lies mistold thru the holy books, infused with Ethnocentricity. However the annunaki did speak of an unfathomable god,( TO THE ANCIENT SUMERIANS) YOUR BLOWING THIS OUT OF PROPORTIAN. IT WAS AN UNFATHOMAbLE GOD TO PEOPLE THAT KNEW NOTHING OF ELECTRICITY, LIGHT, AND HEAT. The gnostic account says that this super god Emulated itself into smaller forms due to its own intuition. Wanting to know more about itself. You are just a victim to the myth of god. Your thinking of god as a white guy with a beard in heaven, sprouting orders and sending those who don't follow to hell. AND THIS IS THE GOD YOU SAY DOESN"T EXIST. YOUR RIGHT HE MOST LIKELY DOESN't. Only your ignorance is shadowing your true beliefs. WE ALL HAVE DIVINCE ESSENCE, THAT IS GOD. IT EXISTS IN ALL THINGS AND IS PROOF OF GOD'S EXISTENCE.

You say the earth is a duality, which was originally a Christian Concept, via Zoroastrianism. NOW THIS IS EVIDENT WITHIN SCIENCE, so you believe it. The fact that you take a photo and along with it their has to be a negative.
Then you jump to say WHO PHYSICALLY CREATED GOD, and made him perfect. Thats the very thing, Is this world perfect? Most of humanity would say no. But what if it is? Then its only a reflection of the divine. (as above so below). However, according to the gnostics this world, and humanity were NOT CREATED BY THIS SUPER INTELLIGENCE, IT WAS CREATED BY AN INFERIOR EMANATION OF THE SUPER INTELLIGENCE, and like ALL EMANATIONS CONTAINED INTELLIGENCE to a degree, and used to to further emulate itself. And so your Rational Mind says PROVE IT, what is it humans want to do more than anything? Learn their intuition fix whats wrong, and live in a state of success. But when youve gotten to a certain point, all thats left is EMULATION. HAVING SEX AND HAVING KIDS. To further advance intelligence and learn more about yourself, untill you die and no longer are yourself. Then the emulation keeps going. AS ABOVE SO BELOW.

You just need to recognize a divine spark, and admit that you know it. Then you are on your way to gnosis. Stop thinking of god as the man with the beard living in the sky, and you can realize that theres more to life than yourself, yet by looking in and around you can learn all you need.

 

Congradulations I think we have a believer!!

 

Except for the fact, that the person proving the point, has to prove the point. You simply said "The proof of god's existence is this world."

And, that's wrong, it's not proof, otherwise few people would question it in the first place." It's only a suggestion of a God, at the most, but it most certainly is not proof.

First off, no need for *personal* insults. Call me ignorant or whatever you like, but you're just lowering this argument down to the dirt with your ad hominem strategy.

I said "Wrongo" for an obvious reason. If you had been paying any attention on these forums, you'd have seen the long posts of pages about how the claimer has the burden of proof. Because anyone could claim something wild, and if they don't have proof, it's impossible to disprove a universal negative such as God. This is explained in any common critical thinking class ...

And second off, you can go fuck yourself if you want to be like that.

Maybe to you, I sound like a prissy. But it's better than sounding like the jackassed moron that you sound like. Definitely a lot more respectable and capable, too.

Take this number: 1 billion. Then this number: 1 million. Multiply them together. Then divide by 5. That's probably approximately how many times a number like "5" is going to occur throughout a very small section of the universe, like our planet.

Granted that this calculation is certainly not accurate, but I'd say it approximates the actual value of the number of times, to within several decillions or so ..

Reefer Madness is propaganda, not fact. If you think Reefer Madness is proof of anything, well, you should get an award.

Okay, calm yourself, first off.

What I just explained is not an accident case. I don't believe it was an accident, do you? It's quite logical to believe that reality was created at some point. However, the idea of a "God" is not a necessary one.

The universe could have arisen from the collapse of another universe. Or it could be the evolution of a "God"-like being (read Isaac Asimov's The Last Question; you can find the text if you google it). Who knows?

All I'm saying is, there is no proof or even reasonable suggestion for a higher entity that fits the description of "God".

And the password combination metaphor can't accurately be called an accident. Rather, it should be called, an incredibly large probability. It's even a possibility that the universe itself WAS created by "accident," or totally at random. You don't know, and there is absolutely no proof for what you suggest the cause is (God).

Then you sit here claiming to have bogus proof for it, and think that just because I can't disprove something so vague and grandiose in scope, that you have won the argument.

Laws of society are not physical laws you moron. Physical laws exist regardless of whether or not there is a society. Social laws are not universal in any sense of the word. Your point about the laws of Alchemy is irrelevant, because your argument suffers from the same drawback as mine does, which I was quite obviously pointing out, in the most satirical way possible. If you can't understand why I was asking you that question, how can you say that I didn't answer yours?

For any deity that can be described with such properties as God is described to have, such a deity would require existance in some kind of logical form (remember -- logical laws are the equivalent of physical laws of a non-spatial dimension). Thus, they would have to exist in some sort of "reality" in which they have these properties. You can describe a deity whether or not one is present. How can a deity create something without existing, at least conceptually, first?

Alchemy is an outdated concept anyway. Nowadays, chemistry and physics explain far more than alchemy ever could. Anyone familiar with chemistry and physics is familiary with the truthful laws of alchemy.

This is exactly the point of my argument!!!

READ THE FIRST POST ON THIS THREAD, THE VERY FIRST ONE.

My argument is that such a "God" must already exist in some realm, be it ethereal, or spiritual, or elemental, or nonphysical, WHICH HAS LAWS THAT ALLOW SUCH A GOD TO EXIST WITH SUCH A DEFINITION AS HE HAS.

This is equivalent to the question, "Where was God before he created heaven?"

Just as no human being could have created the universe we exist in, how could God create the existance that allows him existance?

For Christ's sake, rtfop (read the fucking original post).

"MANIFESTS ITSELF" on this plane? Then what plane does God exist on outside of this one? For such a God as YHWH to exist and have some "form" to reference for the human form, and be able to translate such properties into one realm, such a God must have those properties defined within another logical system. One that could not have been created by himself.

Yes, I am talking about this god, YHWH, the Christo-Judean god, or any other god that has such properties as YHWH does, such as "existing outside all logic".

I am not refuting a non-living all-pervading "essence" or "fabric" or whatever you want to call it of any sort! But for it to even be considered living, or rational, it must be definable within some logic!

Once again, read the original post, please!

Yes! As soon as something is evident, within either science, or logic, I will believe it! Yes, Christians CAN do science.

No, duality was NOT only a Christian concept! It also arose on the Continent, in Asia. Hence Taoism, and Buddhism, and other philosophies of duality that existed long before Christianity ever did!

God IS the man with the beard living in the sky, that I am trying, with this post, to get other people to realize, is a concept which holds them back and cannot be true! I mean, why the hell are you even arguing with me in the first place?! Me talking about this concept of "God", the Lord, Allah, Yahweh, YHWH, Jehovah, and any other deity concept with a similar description and similar properties!!