Abraham muslim or jew/ Akhenaten founder of Judaism?

Continued from The Fear of an afterlife forum.

Yea there is an afterlife for Jews, considering all Jews go to heaven, which is racist as fuck In my opinion but still it works as a conversion method. As for a bad after-life according to this comparison chart, Im not saying its a perfect source for the info but it says the bad afterlife is eternal Gehena, which means reincarnation. So obviously theres no heaven/hell like you said. Yet what about for gentiles? Are they bound to gehenna for all eternity?
http://www.religionfacts.com/islam/comparison_charts/islam_judaism_christianity.htm

Plus why is there no mention of reincarnation in Christian text? Or in general knowledge of Judaism they teach you in school. Cuz this then shows a strong connection between the Gnosticism and Judaism. The idea of reincarnation, slavery to god in this realm, and freedom only upon death, yet you can touch gods presence through diviniation techniques. This is why I dunno I have to say Islam was the religion of Abraham,Isaac,Jakob, and Moses (who by know after being initiated in the Egyptian mystery cults would have been the first to learn occult science, In my opinion, the only other explanation would be Akhenaten the heretic monotheistic Pharoah was the father of modern Judaism, taking the religion of the Habiru mercenaries, and combining it with the elite knowledge of the priesthood and Pharoahs of the time, creating a religion to the all god thats not masked in the enlil (vengefull god of submission) rituals and practice, yet he was shaken at the fact that humanity couldnt accept this, and decided to instead mix these Ideas of the Hebrews, and "makeup" the covenant and the vengefully submission aspect of it. God made a covenant with the Jews to suffer is bullshit in my opinion. They left it wide open for any type of infiltrators to work off this ideal and DISTORT THE TRUTH AND BRAINWASH PEOPLE. Therefore any shadow organization could takeover and use the Jewish people just like the Nazis tried to do, just like the Babylonians did.

 

Actually, the righteous of all nations go there, not just Jews. And Judaism doesn't proselytize.

There is no such thing as eternity in gehenna. The longest time a person can spend in gehenna is 12 months. And on Shabbos everyone in gehenna gets to go to gan eden. And gehenna is not reincarnation. Reincarnation is called gilgul.

Gentiles go to the same place Jews go.

I don't know why you're asking me about Christian texts, and gilgul is a well-known concept. It's a perfectly acceptable belief.

Islam did not exist at that time, and how can you assume that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or Moses really existed, or that their religion would perfectly resemble a modern one? You know, a lot of the alternative stories in the Quran are actually midrash.

And I already told you, the word for Hebrew in Hebrew is Ivri, not Hebrew.

 

I took a moment to look at the link you gave me and saw some important flaws. This chart might be more helpful:

http://web.clas.ufl.edu/users/kenwald/pos4291/spring_00/jewish_practice.htm

Although it isn't perfect, it's much better than what you presented.

 

I like hearing this wisdom my man. But Ill take a step down, and ask some questions. You have heard that Islam declares itself the true monotheism though right? You kind of answered saying how do we know any of the Patriarchs actually existed, which is good. Gilgul thats rad Im glad you cleared that up. Im actually coming to find out Judaism is pretty sick. But what is ghenna a sort of purgatory, or just a cleansing place? Do they say you are reincarnated back into earth or just waiting to be cleansed for heaven.

As for the only Jews go to heaven, I must've been reading some radical racist Jewish stuff. It was seeming to take shots at gentiles and said that only jews go to heaven. Yet still Abraham was the first to make a covenant with god right? He is the first Jew of sorts right, modern jew.

This is actually really cool though to find out cuz Ive been studying gnostic documents and its got more in common with Judaism. Yet it still just comes to the fact what are they waiting for to usher in Moshiach? What is the Jewish aspect on the sacraments, or on drugs of an entheogenic nature, is this an acceptable divination technique, what about meditation and such.

Aside from this, have you ever herad of Akhenaten and the radical change in religion and Egypt and a possible relation of him to moses? He sprouted worship of the aten, an all omniscent god similar to what Judaism calls yahweh. Yet I don't know what to think because the god of gnostics can only be reached through divine knowledge and intuition. They beleive the god of the Jews is the demiurge, a false god, yet the jews claim to worship a supreme ruler thats unfathomable in some aspects, whereas the Demiurge is very fathomable, and only correlates because of his forcing of slavery, and submission, and he is also the ignorant and vengeful god, putting a perfect Enlil/Jehovah/Yahweh/Allah ritual persuasion on this super god that requires no commandments, or right action. Only right intuitive knowledge, the rest are an automatic result of right knowledge.

 

Most religions make triumphalist statements about themselves. What Islam says is that the original teachings in the Tanach were corrupted and that their versions are the correct versions.

I'm a liberal Jew. I don't accept the Torah as literal history.

Like I think I said before, eschatology is not a hard science in Judaism. I don't mean this literally. Clearly it's not a hard science in any religion. What I mean is that, according to Judaism, what we know about the afterlife is educated guesses at best. And there are conflicting guesses as well. One idea is that in gehenna one is confronted with all of the wrongs they have done in their lifetime, and that this allows them to transform, to grow, to the point that they are ready for gan eden. It has been suggested that gehenna inspired the Christian concept of purgatory.

Gilgul is a separate belief from gehenna. It could be held alongside or instead of belief in gehenna. There is an idea that one could be reincarnated again on earth as a person or an animal or such. There are kabbalistic writings that trace one person through multiple lifetimes in biblical and later literature.

I would imagine that what you were reading wasn't Jewish. But I could be wrong. And again, Judaism is not a race.

Noah was the first to have a covenant with God. Abraham is understood to be the first Jew, but I wouldn't say that he was the first modern Jew. Just like all religions Judaism has undergone much change and evolution, from the abolishment of multiple slaughter-sites and establishment of a central Temple by Solomon to the innovations of the sages of the mishna and gemara to the introduction of Aristotelian philosophy by Maimonides to the flourishing of kabbalah to the Jewish Enlightenment, all those things I haven't mentioned, and the wheel keeps turning.

Traditionally Judaism is waiting for the moshiach. The moshiach in Judaism is completely human, does not die for anyone's sins. Rather, he is a leader. Moshiach means annointed one. Cyrus is called a moshiach. The moshiach is supposed to traditionally usher in a time of world peace, when the Temple will be rebuilt, etc. But liberal Jews tend not to believe in a literal moshiach.

I don't understand what sacraments are. Judaism's approach to drugs can vary a little. On the one hand, it supports, for example, the drinking of alcohol for enjoyment. On the other hand, there can be an argument not to take a substance if it will cloud one's mind. So there isn't full agreement on the issue. There are some progressive Jews who fully support the use of entheogens. I posted this recently, I think:

http://www.rzlp.org/index.cfm?objectid=FCF77867-D612-00A6-AD35666A6077AFAC

There is also a concept in Judaism that the law of the land one lives in must be followed unless it forces one to break religious law. So that would be one argument against using many substances in the States. There's no black and white answer. It's potentially permissible.

Meditation is a Jewish thing to do. It often takes place during prayer or study, although it can also be its own practice. There are two categories of meditation in Judaism. One is emptying the mind - this is probably what is more commonly thought of as meditation -- and the other is filling it. David Cooper suggested the definition for meditation as, "cultivating mind-states." I think this is accurate.

 

Cab,

What the word means has nothing to do with whether or not it existed from the beginning. And the Quran, which doesn't date earlier than the time of Muhammad, can prove nothing in this conversation. You might as well stop quoting from it.

It all depends on what you regard Judaism as. According to the Tanach he was promised to be the father of a great nation. That would make him the first patriarch of Judaism. And actually, Abraham is called an "Ivri" in the Torah. Ivri is Hebrew for "a Hebrew." That's a name used for Jews.

Again, the definition of a word in no way establishes that a religion is more ancient.

 

Thanks for the insight. Yet I still don't know what I beleive of the Patriarchs and the relation of Islam and Judaism, I guess neither of them are more right. Which Cyrus are you referring to?

 

Nimrod,

Cyrus, king of Persia, mentioned in Isaiah.

 

Have you heard of Akhenaten and his radical form of monotheism? It according to Historical records non-biblical would've been about 100 years before Moses. If he were to exist, if you beleive the Torah isn't literal, then would you consider that he had a part in it. This is historical fact, that he DID exist, and it would be around 100 to almost 20 years if you connected the two. Akhenatens religion did not just simplify Egypt to Ra worship as people would have you think.

It was about the Aten, a god with attributes of light and energy, a being beyond understanding rationally, yet could be experienced through conciousness. It was symbolized by the Sun, as a sort of representative to those who could not fathom it. It was not RA however. Do you believe their could be a connection between this and the religion of the Hebrews? It is a known fact he built a tabernacle type dwelling in Armana where he moved the capital. He built a temple as well, that was VERY similar to Solomons temple. It was also supposedly holding the Ark of the Covenant. Or if not "The" ark then it was still referred to as the holiest of holies with a sacred chamber exactly like Solomons.

 

Nimrod,

I am aware of Akhenaten. One of the issues to consider is whether the Jews influenced Akhenaten or Akhenaten influenced the Jews, but that is far in the back of my mind because there are much more pressing issues.

As I don't accept the Torah literally, I don't believe that all of a sudden a people began to believe in a God completely unlike humans with no pantheon. The theory that makes the most sense to me is that during the Babylonian Exile the Jews began to develop a unique theology. Usually in that part of the world, when one nation conquered another, its gods vanquished or subdued the other nation's gods. But in the case of Israel, it adapted and the theology stated that their god was actually the God of all, and their God was punishing them for their sins by means of their enemies. Instead of their god failing them, they failed God. Before that time, I don't think we can assume anything more than henotheism.

Another issue is dating. We don't know for a fact that there was actually an Exodus, and if there was an Exodus, dating it is very tricky. So you can't really state with certainty that Akhenaten ruled 100 years before Moses. And if he did, it would be unlikely he could have influenced Moses because, as I recall, the cultic changes Akhenaten made were completely rejected by his successors.

Solomon is another issue. The first thing about Solomon, there is a huge time gap between Solomon and the supposed existence of Moses. So you really can't claim direct influence. Now Solomon, if you look at what he was doing, he was modeling his court and his country off of the big empires, which includes Egypt. And he competely rattled the nation. He took the tribes and ignored the way they had always been divided, dividing them into districts instead. He had the people serve him in forced labor. The people were used to worshipping at their own local slaughter-sites, and what they were used to was basically a tent structure. He got rid of that and built a huge Temple in a single location. He claimed divine wisdom that could rival prophecy.

The Torah describes God in human terms. He has a back, a hand, even if descriptions remain vague. This continues in the Talmud. He also seems to have very human-like emotions. This all changes as a reaction to a publication by Maimonides called the Guide for the Perplexed. The Muslims at the time had been translating all of the great philosophers into arabic. Both Islam and Judaism were being influenced by these translations. Maimonides, in the Guide for the Perplexed, attempts to display how Aristotelian philosophy (with some exceptions) and Torah do not disagree. There's a translation available online if you search for it.

One other thing I'd like to say is that there's a lot of information out there about Akhenaten, and a lot of it is New Age gobbledygook. So you may want to be careful in your reading to research your sources.

 

They were only rejected by the Priesthood he was sending into poverty. They staged the coup to kill him, appoint his wife pharoah Smenkhare I beleive. THen his nephew Tutankhamen, who was before named Tutankhaten, was murdered and then come 2 radical tyrant pharoahs Ramses and Seti I.

His people did not really have the chance to view him as a tyrant. He was only a radical to the Phaorahs that came after him. I would seriously consider him the first Messiah of modern times, within ancient history. If not moses, he set out for a kingdom of heaven, with a divine mediator (now whether his intention was to eventually become a tyrant, or as he thought fullfill the operation of the sun. Aten is thet slave and can only be felt through death and resurrection themes.

"Akhenaten strengthened the Atenist regime, declaring the Aten not merely the supreme god but actually the only god, a universal deity, and forbidding worship of all others, including the veneration of idols, even privately in people's homes - an arena the Egyptian state had previously not touched in religious terms. Atenism, like Judaism, was then based on strict unitarian monotheism, the belief in one God. The prayer par excellence in terms of defining God is the Great Hymn to the Aten, "O Sole God beside whom there is none" (compare this to the Judaic Shema Yisrael, "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one").

"Akhenaten staged the ritual regicide of the old supreme god Amun, and ordered the defacing of Amun's temples throughout Egypt, and of all the old gods. The word for `gods' (plural) was proscribed, and inscriptions have been found in which even the hieroglyph of the word for "mother" has been excised and re-written in alphabetic signs, because it had the same sound in ancient Egyptian as the sound of name of the Theban goddess Mut. Aten's name is also written differently after Year 9, to emphasise the radicalism of the new regime. No longer is the Aten written using the symbol of a rayed solar disc, but instead it is spelt phonetically." Sounds at least like the muslim idea of the one god. No idols only that sick looking calligraphy written word of god.

 

I looked on wikipedia and not only was this degree of information missing, but there appear to be varying theories on some of this. As I said before, be careful of which sources you choose.

Using what definition of messiah? In Judaism there is one messiah, unless we include the moshiach ben yoseph who is supposed to be some type of general or commander or warrior or something. A moshiach, an annointed one, is merely anyone who is annointed with oil into a leadership position. This includes a kohein gadol (high priest), a king, and although I could be mistaken I think some prophets may have also been annointed.

How do you know this?

What source are you quoting from? According to wikipedia, the people were allowed to replace their idols with similar figures of Akhenaten and his family. The two prayers you've compared aren't very similar in structure. Usually the Hymn to Aten is compared to psalm 104. See here:

http://www.seanet.com/~realistic/psalm104.html

 

The identity of the Pharaoh whose praenomen is Ankhkheprure, who is usually known as Smenkhkare, is somewhat mysterious. Egyptologists do not even agree whether he was a man or a woman - although the position that he was a man is traditional, and more common. The difficulty is that Smenkhkare shares some names with Nefertiti, wife of Akhenaten, and it is possible that Nefertiti is Smenkhkare, as it is not unheard of Ancient Egypt for women to become Pharaohs (e.g., Hatshepsut).

Two sets of names are associated with Smenkhkare:
Ankhkheprure Neferneferuaten, who is probably the queen we know as Nefertiti, wife of Akhenaten of the Eighteenth Dynasty, and who may have ruled as co-regent with her husband;
Ankhkheprure Smenkhkare, who may be identical with Queen Meritaten, Akhenaten's daughter and Chief Wife after Nefertiti's death.

It is a known fact that Smenkhare, was the next pharoah after Akhenaten was banished because in records his sarcophagus was destroyed, and his skeleton was not present inside. It is very strongly beleived Smenkhare was a woman, and was related to Akhenaten.

What better of a way for the priests do make it look like everything was going alright, than to say Akhenaten died of natural causes and his wife was now going to assume the throne, or daughter.

Then in the meantime they, got their own people ready and then murdered king Tutankhamen, who was being replaced by a woman till he was of an age to govern. Replacing him with a dynasty that was in strong cahoots with the priesthood. It makes sense to me, and is documented, these facts were even said in Wikipedia.

Ramses came in the 19th dynasty whereas Tut basically finished the 18th dynasty, then like a 4 year reign, and a 30 year reign by Horemheb, who was not of the same bloodline and seized power yet was still an inbetween time of the true family of Akhenaten, and Ramses the I. The viziers of thebes and memphis dominated during Horemhebs reign, and he was ushering in a final dissolution of atenism, all things about Akhenaten and bringing Ra to be the supreme god. Whereas then came a new dynasty only really about 45 years after Akhenatens reign, first lead by RAmses, which meant Ra is born.

I mean as in he was the first to create a kingdom of heaven, as heretical as this sounds. I mean it in more of a Christian sense, but more just in a total view of englihtened beings in all of western history sense. As in radical reformers to corrupt systems with an idea of a one god behind it all. Yet his message said the king was the intermediary between god and the people. So this is sort of a communism, with god as the highest, then the royal family, then the people. A simple hierarchy of power, yet I think this is not accurate, I beleive his message was to slowly wean the people polytheism, then to monotheism, where objective worship is done by the Pharoah in view of the Public at an outdoor mass, where demonstrations of gods power would be evindent. One ceremony he had was leaving fruit out on a table all day in the sun, watching as the sun stole the fruits energy, and made it rot, trying to let the people know of the idea of a sole on lone from god symbolized by the sun and its heat, light, and energy. The sun then became a symbol, then only words written. The same as allah to the muslims. I guess Im saying he was annointed, I beleive all of humanity would eventually become annointed through his system of religion and politics.

As far as knowing he was a tyrant, the records were kept by the priests, and obviously destroyed with intent to never look back. This to the modern mind, doesn't seem accurate, instead it sounds like Nazi book burning. The ethno and religious leaders don't want other ideas to pop up and make them lose power again. I beleive his ideas either borrowed from the hebrew people,or created by him and carried out by the Hebrew people. It is known that he had a mystery school during his reign that initiated a new style of priesthood of the common man coming into the works. Where now you would have 24 years of study of the true esoteric science, instead of 12 years like the previous priesthood, then selection for the higher initiation. All humans would be initiated. This mystery cult was also located inside the sphinx legend has it. He wanted to release this sacred knowledge of geometry, math, science, and the occult sciences, modern science doesn't even recognize. He would let all humans be one underneath him, being the sole proprietor of this wisdom.


The people were weaned off polytheism dude, idols of god and of the royal family, were at the end of his reign outlawed as well. Only the written word of the Aten was allowed.

Oh before I forget, when I said Habiru or Hapiru for hebrew, I didn't mean the word Hebrew in Hebrew. IT was the word in Egyptian. For the people lead by Abraham.

 

And all of this to fall within 20-180 roughly 200 years, of the biblical exodus. Come on dude. It can't be a coincidence. When a mass of wisdom, and people were brought away from RAMSES THE I! Sigmund Freud even Identified Akhenaten and Moses to be the SAME GUY. I do not beleive that, but I think moses was a son that he smuggled away when he was banished. Then put him in the basket back to Pharoah, all just for his own safety, cuz they were killing all his known children. Then where does moses finds out hes not a hebrew, but the son of Akhenaten, visits him then the whole ask the one you call father crap happens. He proves he did banish his father injustly, and then moses runs away and kills an Egyptian guard out of anger. Then comes back demands the Hebrew people be freed, knowing their the backbone of Phaorahs empire. Then the rest is true. But since you don't take it literally its straight, Id like your feedback though. Cmon, Moses goes up on mt sinai and meets with god? Or Akhenaten who has the torah and 10 commandments already written. That he worked on for 40 years during his exile. Ive heard that the 10 commandments come straight out of the Egyptian book of the dead. Separately I might like to know your interpertation of the Torah, is it a metaphor or what? I don't understand exactly.

 

What makes them enlightened? And how do you know that Akhenaten's actions were not politically motivated?

You are using the annointed concept in a way it is not used within Judaism. Historically, leaders were annointed, not just by the Israelites. This may or may not have been a practice in Egypt. I don't know. Whether or not it was done, it has nothing to do with the moshiach. It also has nothing to do with all of humanity being annointed. There is no need. It is basically an innaugauration ritual.

It is known by whom? According to wikipedia the only way to reach God was through Akhenaten. This and what you continue to say is one of the pieces that sounds very New Age to me.

Can you supply for me one source saying specifically that images of the royal family were not allowed toward the end of his reign?

This is way off. Read here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru

When you make statements like this it makes me really doubt the sources of your information. It shows a complete lack of knowledge of (or complete disregard for) the debates going on within the academic community.

As I stated earlier, we don't know that the biblical exodus actually happened, and if it did happen, it's not so easy to date it. This page reviews (very briefly) some of the current theories.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history_community/Ancient/TheStoryTO/Exodus.htm

Before you jump on top of every shred of "theory" that seems to support you, please make note of the rest of the theory that does not.

What makes Sigmund Freud an expert on this matter? What makes you think it was Ramses I? The only theory close to this that my article states is Ramses II.

The basket theme is borrowed from mythology, I believe Egyptian.

What makes you put so much faith that there are historical undercurrents to the legends and mythologies of the Torah? I'm not saying that there aren't, but how can you assume? Especially when it comes to something with so much drama, and something so ancient.

One thing I like to think about is all of the different sources mentioned, not that the stories necessarily have any truth to them at all, but that these sources may have been mentioned because the cultures were sources for some of the Jewish people, or there was some syncretic influence. So you have Egypt, you have Moses' father-in-law, the nomadic shephard (which is the place where the "ehyeh asher ehyeh" incident happens) you have Abraham from Ur. What were the authors trying to tell us, if anything? It may not be significant at all.

What makes you think that the 10 commandments existed in the time of Moses? Do you believe that the stories about Moses were written down and compiled close to his lifetime, or is it more likely that a pre-literate people only accomplished this later on, and in doing so mixed in some of their legal system which had already begun to develop, merging it with the legend and myth which had developed around Moses?

I'm not interested in hearsay. I know that the law code in Deuteronomy is strikingly similar to Hamurabi's Code. Could you please stop presenting so many wild theories and start trying to ground them a little bit?

The Torah is an historical document which probably developed out of multiple sources, both oral and written, containing myth, legend, legal code, genealogy. While it is a unique work, it was influenced by the cultures the Israelites were surrounded by.

For the Jewish people, the Torah became scripture. For me, I consider it sacred. While I hold everything I mentioned about it to be true, I have no problem looking at all four layers of meaning according to PaRDeS methodology: plain meaning, alluded meaning, allegorical, homiletical meaning, and hidden meaning. I have no problem holding both to history and a shared religio-cultural myth. Nor do I have a problem making use of the system which developed beyond the Torah in the Talmud and other documents for my own spiritual practice. If you want to know more about my type of Judaism, this is its statement of principles:

http://www.aleph.org/principles.html

Mostly, I'd be happier to talk about the spiritual which derives from Torah. I think it's much more valuable day to day. But when someone presents something as history, I will usually try to keep it at that.

The first two days of Pesach are chag, and after that is Shabbos, so if you say something I may not respond to you until Saturday night or Sunday.

 

They were enlightened in the fact that any of these so called people were prophets I meant to say. Jesus, Moses, Muhammed, Krishna, Buddha Shakyamuni, etc. That they had revolutionary ideas, with the common good in mind.

Of course Akhenaten's actions were politically motivated. He like Muhammed sought to unite politics and religion into one religion, under one god, under one royal family, for one culture, in one society. Pre-Tower of Babel type shizzz.

By annointed I should've said enlightened then I guess, he would've revealed the secret knowledge of the mystery cults to the masses, after he eliminated the priesthood. Making the first kingdom of heaven, proving the Atens existence, and since he was the saviour to unite man with its pre fall state of grace, would be reverred as a leader and worthy of his family and descendants being the royal family in his new world order.
However I do beleive that Akhenaten also could've been black, and his trying to remove the priesthood was trying to free himself from a white Babylonian dominated priesthood, and upper class. However this is not what I truly beleive this is only a racist idea, that makes sense, only if the Hebrews were in fact African of skin and feature. What about the Levite priests though as an example who carried the Ark out of Egypt? They were portrayed even on History Channel as tall lanky black dudes. This is another topic for another time, but I think the Hebrews were of mixed race, in my heart that is, not really my mind, in my mind I beleive they were the nubians of Egypt, kept in slavery. Not semitic peoples.


The Royal family was always portrayed in sculptures, yet never directly worshipped in the form of idols, since that would take away from the Aten. (You may have misread this on wikipedia) my paste function isn't working for some reason and I don't want to restart so go to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaten
and read the last paragraph of the Atenist revolution. It says all idols, this would include an idol worshipping the royal family.

As for the mystery school that would only be worthwhile to explain to you if you were interested in esoteric studies, that you are labelling New Age. Which is not New Age at all. I will find a link and post it, I just have to search my history files.

As for the Habiru, the History Channel did a special on warfare in the bible and stated that these Habiru, were either Hurrian or proto-hebrews. I tend to beleive in the latter.


According to History Ramses the I was the first pharoah of the 19th dynasty coming after Horemhab, Smenkhare, and Tutankhamen. Only 45 years had passed within the reign of all of these leaders. So Akhenaten could still have been alive according to history.

Egypt and Ur, were the only booming civilizations of the near east, alongside Mezoamerica, and India, outside of the near east. They couldve easily walked the distance between them, althought since you are more well read in Judaism I will concede to this point. Yet I beleive that Egypt became only after Babylon, for instance In mesopotamia, the epic of Gilgamesh was already an ancient tale by the time of Nebuchadnezzar. I think Mesopotamia existed alot farther back than history realizes. This is where I beleive biblical records fill in the blanks. I just beleive that Abraham recognized how bad the tyrants had become after Noah. Then wanted to go back to the old ways. Etc, then Egypt became powerfull, had mystery schools wereas Babylon was more into Laws and warfare. Thats why they had the succesfull cuneiform, as opposed to the hieroglyps of egypt.

This is why I think, Akhenaten proves a viable excuse to how God handed the tablets to Moses. Cuneiform and Heiroglyphs both date back to this time, and according to records so did Hebrew.

The 10 commandments book of the dead, I will concede again on this point. Ahmed Osman stated a few, they looked similar however its not exact.

I read your articles, I found them very interesting as well as the 4 layers of meaning in the Torah. This is very rad. The Quran I know has 3 meanings as well. This is bullshit though, what are they trying to keep the average person from knowing? Why must you pay money and be initiated into some sort of priesthood to learn these other translations of holy texts in these monotheisms? I dunno man that makes me angry.

 

If you want to quote from my text you can do so by using these brackets [] in place of these parentheses () in the following formula: (quote) the text you wish to quote (/quote). It makes the discussion easier to follow.

Are you saying that one must be monotheist to be enlightened or good or a prophet? Certainly there was good before Akhenaten brought monotheism.

How do you know?

The whole kingdom of heaven thing is not Jewish, and I don't fully understand the reference. And how would that prove Aten's existence?

Did the Egyptians believe in a "fall?" The concept of the fall is dealt with very differently in Judaism than it is in Christianity.

What about them?

The phrase mixed multitude is used in the Torah. It could suggest that they were not united by ethnicity.

It does not cover it. See this quote:

"Although idols were banned - even in people's homes - these were typically replaced by functionally equivalent representations of Akhenaten and his family venerating the Aten, and receiving the ankh (breath of life) from him."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atenism

I am interested in esoteric studies. I have no interest in the bastardization of the study of history.

The History Channel is not the final, nor is it the most verbose and inclusive, word on History. My link gives some legitimate theories in addition to those two, which are just as valid. But it is good of you to admit that considering them proto-Hebrews is just a belief.

I find it highly unlikely that there was a historical Noah, and I also think it's pretty unlikely that there was an historical Abraham.

I don't understand why you assume there was a Moses and that there were tablets. But I would ask, in what way is the ancient Hebrew script directly related to Egyptian heiroglyphs?

Another question: If you're willing to go so far as to say there were tablets for an historical Moses, why would you not then accept that they were received on Mount Sinai?

Unless I am mistaken, the methodologies are similar.

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about. How are they trying to keep the average person from knowing anything? And what's money got to do with it? And why are you mentioning a priesthood? In Judaism, the priesthood is hereditary. We still have kohanim and leviim. But they really do very little now. The first person called up to the Torah is a kohein, second a levi, and if a family has a first-born male then he is bought from the kohanim as per the Torah, although that is really only ceremonial and the kohanim usually give the coins back. Oh, and primarily in Orthodox congregations there is sometimes a priestly blessing. But that's it. A non-priest cannot become a priest. And priests have no authority.

 

its not really racist since jews are a religion and hebrew is the race. you can be jewish but not hebrew.and all religions say that only their followers go to heavon. islam says only muslims do and christianity says only christians do. if it said only hebrews go to heavon then that would be racist

 

mr.morrisson,

You cannot be Jewish but not Hebrew. If someone converts to Judaism, they become a Hebrew. In the language of Judaism the terms are interchangeable. Judaism is a tribal religion, and a convert becomes a member of the tribe.

And Judaism says that the righteous of all nations have a place in olam haba, not just Jews. That means Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, etc.