catstevens - some mistakes you're making

cat,

while i admire your willingness to answer questions on islam here, Im a bit disturbed by some inaccuracies.

In the thread on leaving islam, i.e. the punishment for apostacy, you've been misinformed.

this is your response:

I have no idea where you got this understanding of islamic teachings, but it borders on speculation, and not on the actual teaching of the religion.


There shall be no compulsion in religion, for guidance and error have been clearly distinguished (2:257

Apostacy means a plain and clear repudiation of Islam by a professing Muslim. It is only the profession or clear conduct of a person himself that makes him an apostate.
Simple apostacy, which is not aggravated by rebellion, treason or grave disorderliness, is not punishable in any manner in this life. You got extremely confused on this manner.

Islam guarantees complete freedom of conscience and of belief. A disbeliever and a simple apostate stand in the same category; neither of them is liable to any penalty in this life.

Compulsion and force might make people hypocrites, but cannot make them believers - and it's completely against what the Quran teaches us.

I spliced some of this from the following site:

http://www.alislam.org/books/apostacy/index.html


I'm sorry to say, but you were just completely wrong with your answer,and it's things like that that give Islam a bad name.

Please be more careful when answering people's questions here.

thanks

 

hmmm the sura you qoute from is a meccan sura its no longer in force, also there are sahih haddith that support the killing of apostates .
also you would need to prove what you say in lots of islamic majority countrys where they have either the death sentence for a muslim changing his religion or very long prision sentences .

things seem to be running in the oppersite direction to what you say as more countrys are bringing in laws making it illegal to leave islam .



hopefully cat will say something but I think what he said is correct

 

Ozy​

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Hi Ozy! ^^​

There is a Haddeeth which says:​

ãä ÈÏá Ïíäå ÝÇÞÊáæå​

Kill, Who changed his religion (of course if he was a Muslim and he changed his religion) similar to the Bible ​

BTW: Some scholars say that there is no punishment for the apostatized Muslims as long as they won't make rebellion (wage war) on Muslims and their sacred things I knew that 2 weeks ago , however, there was a debate on this matter , I watched it, I think the other opinion is right, For more about this issue which discusses both of the opinions clich here http://www.islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article01.shtml​

in that link you'll find more than 6 Articles about this issue for example:​

*Apostasy and the Freedom of Religion​

*Discretionary or Prescribed Punishment!​

*Apostasy: Major and Minor​

*No Punishment, If No Harm​

and regarding verse:2:257 it is about Non-Muslims, i.e. we show them Islam they don't want to accept it then there is no compulsion in religion, that's up to them​

1) '' Therefore remind (men) in case the reminder profits (them) '' 87: 9​

2) '' So remind them , for you are but a remembrancer. You are not a dictator on them '' '' you are not at all a warder over them'' 88: 21&22​

3) ''… your duty is only to convey (the Message), and on us is the reckoning.''
​

13: 40
4) ''Then, if they turn away, your duty is only to convey (the message), in a clear way''16: 82.​

Yup, this is an opinion of some scholars, you can find it in the following link​

http://www.islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article01e.shtml​

If people think that such and such or any punishment or law in Islam makes Islam bad or barbaric I really don't care, and i won't change it to make it looks Good!! I care about what Allah says, orders, decrees etc This is his land, His creatures the only one who has the utter right to make whatever law he wants. I don't argue my Sir's laws. ​

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Yup, ^^ that's why I wrote:​

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You are more than welcome^^ Thank YOU very much for your concern​

Yours Sincerely,
​

Cat Stevens​

 

jonny2mad​

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Peace and love ​

​

Yours Sincerely,​

​

Cat Stevens​

 

no cat.

Im sorry, but I dont give damn about what those other "scholars" say. excuse my language, but its something that really aggravates me.

I'm not attempting to alter the text or the hadith in a PR effort. im using these sources in order to prove just how wrong scholars and muslims have been with their interpretations.

if you're going to insist on arguing your interpretation is correct you're going to need to show me where it says that in the quran.

here's what the quran says:

Proclaim, O Prophet, O mankind the Truth has indeed come to you from your Lord. Then whoso follows the guidance, follows it only for the good of his own self, and whoso errs does so only to his own detriment. I am not appointed a keeper over you (10: 109)

This is the truth from your Lord; then let him who will, believe, and let him who will, disbelieve. We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire which covers them like a canopy (18:30)

You'll see that neither of these say anything about HUMANS taking care of apostates.

Now:

http://www.alislam.org/books/apostacy/6.html

"There is no compulsion whatever in Islam. So far as the Holy Quran is concerned there. is no text, no verse, not a single word that prescribes any worldly, political or administrative punishment for apostacy."

don't just follow your so-called scholars. im surprised you came to this conclusion after looking at the debate, because it seems pretty clear to me that there's a very clear distinction between rebellion of the nation, and people that simply renounce islam.

start examining this yourself. its an absolutely false interpretation within Islam that apostacy is punished in this world.

Completely, and utterly false.

 

DearOzy

Allah says:
[004:059] O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Muhammad pbuh), and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger (pbuh), if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination.
[005:092] And obey Allah and the Messenger (Muhammad pbuh), and beware and fear Allah. Then if you turn away, you should know that it is Our Messengers duty to convey (the Message) in the clearest way.
Accordingly: The Messanger stated: ãä ÈÏá Ïíäå ÝÇÞÊáæå
This Haddeeth can be found in Sahih AlBukharee , in the following link
http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=4754

Again, Allah is talking to Non-Muslims Proclaim, O Prophet, O mankind when Allah talk to us, he says, O you who believe I mean,O mankind the Truth has indeed come to you from your Lord. Then whoso follows the guidance we Muslims already followed it! This is the truth from your Lord; then let him who will, believe, and let him who will, disbelieve He didn't say let him he Who wants to disbelieve after believing to disbelieve! BTW:Can you read Arabic?

The above verse isn't talking about this issue at all.

if someone wants to understand the Noble Quran, then he must not just only read the Noble Verses from it, but also study the history of each verse because each verse in the Noble Quran came for a purpose. And should refer to the Haddeeths as well.
​

I follow the Prophet Muhammad, I follow the Haddeeth as well.

[003:031] Say (O Muhammad pbuh to mankind): "If you (really) love Allah then follow me (me=Muhammad i.e. follow his Sunnah =Haddeeth), Allah will love you and forgive you of your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
​

The scholar mentioned many other Haddeeths (intact Haddeeths) even the broadcaster said: You have the convincing opinion! but the other one didn't give a single proof!

I have never heard or read a Haddeeth which says, If a Muslim apostatized without rebellion but simply renounce islam, then don't kill him just kill that who makes rebellion or wages a war!!!!

What about the haddeeth?

Peace and love ​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

 

Sadly,​

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Judge Islam according to Quraan and Haddeeth not to its followers​

because many don't practice Islam​

Peace and love ​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

 

wrong again.

you failed to show from this either the quran or the hadith that apostacy is punishable:

where is the call for punishment by HUMANS here?

or here, with this hadith?

you're pulling on straws here. theres NOTHING here that says humans have the right to punish those that desert the faith.

BUT, theres stories after stories where the Prophet didnt punish those that simply left the faith:

http://www.alislam.org/books/apostacy/11.html#hadees

do you deny that this incident took place?

or what about this one:

http://www.alislam.org/books/apostacy/11.html#hadees


Now look at what happened with companions here:

http://www.alislam.org/books/apostacy/13.html


I urge you to look at these links carefully. I dont care if this other scholar failed in his debate.

It's irrelvant to me, because I have tons of evidence to back up my claim that Islam doesnt punish apostacy.

You've failed to show a single incidence where it does. and I once again, implore you to look at the quran, the hadith. and that website.

and yes, i can read arabic.


here's what other scholars say on this:

http://www.alislam.org/books/apostacy/17.html

 

Props to Ozy.
Way to go, man!
Feel the Loves, bro.
S/A

 

unfortunately i cant have the dedication catstevens has to this message board. so i prob wont be posting as frequently.

but i just felt that it was extremely important to get to the root of islam without these so-called scholars. all we have to do is use the actual hadith and quran to reform our understanding of the religion.

 

Ozy​

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You lost me, I meant by verses: 4.59 + 5.92 + 3.31 That we should follow the Sunnah=Haddeeeth=The Messenger , when these verses asks us to follow him then we should follow the haddeeth which says kill the apostatized Muslims!​

Very true, the other Scholar in the debate mentioned them, many of them, I will comment on that later​

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well, Do you know that​

Allah revealed The Quraan in the installments over a period of twenty-three years! you have to analyze these verses and Haddeeths again and again, taking into account the scriptural and historical context of the revelation. + when did they revealed (The time and Place etc)
I mean these incidents happened before Allah decreed this law (punishment of apostasy) e.g. when Allah sent prophet Muhammad (pbuh), Alcohol wasn't Haram, that's why you read this verse:​

[004:043] O you who believe! Approach not (the prayer) when you are in a drunken state until you know (the meaning) of what you utter​

​

which means you can drink, and when you aren't sober don't pray, if you want to pray you should be sober.That's why they were drinking alcohol after the evening prayer (Isha' prayer) the last fifth prayer but after a while Allah revealed​

[005:091] (Satan) wants only to excite enmity and hatred between you with intoxicants (alcoholic drinks) and gambling, and hinder you from the remembrance of Allah and from (the prayer). So, will you not then abstain?​

Then the companions replyed, intahaina intahaina which means we abstained we abstained and they got rid of all alcoholic drinks After this verse: Alcohol became Haram. You shouldn't drink it whether you will drink it before the eveining prayer or after it.​

so, again, these incidents happened before Allah decreed this law (punishment of apostasy) why Steven is saying so, I tell ya, there are other Haddeeths where the Prophet (pbuh) ordered to kill those Muslims who apostatized, you may say: well, then Allah decreed to don't punish them, That was the former decree, I say NO, why? after the prophet death (pbuh)​

Some Muslims apostatized and they were killed by Muslims (the companions) because they knew about the Haddeeth. They killed those who didn't wage wars didn't made any kind of rebellion, just because they apostatized and refused to come back to islam read about these incidents which happened with the companion Ali bin Aby Talib and (Abdullah bin Masood I believe) and Omar bin Al-Khatab. The scholar in the debate mentioned many incidents.​

And again regarding this link you provided http://www.alislam.org/books/apostacy/13.html​

There is no single haddeeth where the prophet says:​

If a Muslim apostatized without rebellion but simply renounce islam, then don't kill him just kill that who makes rebellion or wages a war!!!! The haddeeth is too clear, Kill he (The Muslim) who changed his religion (islam).​

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COOL! ^^ please do write in Arabic (if you don't mind)​

[020:114] ....and say: "My Lord! Increase me in knowledge."​

Peace and love ​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

 

áÇÍÙ ÈÇäå Ýí ÕÍíÍ ÇáÈÎÇÑí åäÇß ÈÇÈÇä ÇÍÏåãÇ​

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ãÕÏÑ ÇáÍÏíË:http://hadith.al-islam.com/display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=10312​

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http://hadith.al-islam.com/display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=10313​

Peace and love ​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

 

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http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=4&Rec=5466​

Peace and love ​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

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Peace and love ​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

 

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ÈÇáãäÇÓÈÉ ÃäÇ ßäÊ ãËáß ÓÇÈÞÇ æÞÏ ÌÇÏáÊ ÈÚÖ ÇáÚáãÇÁ Íæá åÐå ÇáãÓÃáÉ¡ ÃßÑÑ Åäí ÃÊÑß ÇáãÓÃáÉ åÐå ááÚáãÇÁ​

Peace and love ​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

 

where is this hadith?

its silly to put arabic in an english forum, for one thing. (and it just looks like its jibberish here since these threads dont recognize the language!)

secondly, i said i can read arabic, thats hardly the same thing as saying i can speak or write it.

i understand the grammer laws, i can recognize root words, but its hardly relevant in this.

and for my sake and everyone else's here, we should be dealing w/ this in english.

you asked me to show you this:

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this is a silly argument to make. i dont see a single quote from the prophet that said specifically that suicide bombing is against islam. but we can infer from the fact the commandments that suicide is strictly forbidden and the taking of innocent lives is forbidden, that suicide bombing is also forbidden.



but look these up:

The execution of an apostate is permissible only when it is designed to restrain the apostate from continuing his aggression; it is not permissible merely on account of his reversion to disbelief, for the punishment of disbelief is severer than execution and can be imposed only by God Almighty (Fatehal Kadeer, Val. IV, p.389).

The execution of an apostate is permissible only when it is designed to restrain the apostate from continuing his aggression; it is not permissible merely on account of his reversion to disbelief, for the punishment of disbelief is severer than execution and can be imposed only by God Almighty (Fatehal Kadeer, Val. IV, p.389).


I dont believe in Hadiith that are counter to the Quran, Im sorry to say. but that is the way most muslims should follow hadith.

http://www.alislam.org/library/books/mna/chapter_7.html


there's example after example where apostacy wasnt punished, but acts of violent revolt were punished.


Apostasy which is not aggravated by some other crime is not punishable in this wor



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Ibn Ishaq reports (Abdul Malik Bur Hisham, Kitab Sirat Rasul Allah, 381) :

And when the Qiblah was changed from Syria to the Kabah...: ‘Why have you turned your back on the Qiblah you used to face when you claimed to follow the religion of Abraham? If you returned to the Qiblah in Jerusalem we would follow you and declare you to be true.’ Their sole intention was to seduce him from his religion. So God said: ‘We appointed the Qiblah, which you formerly observed, only to distinquish between he who will follow the Messenger and those who will not—to test and fetch them out. In truth, it was a hard test except for those whom Allah guided.

The Quran prescribes no punishment for these recanters. And history records the punishment of no one who recanted after the change of the Qiblah.

 

Ozy

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I already put the link!​

In sahih Bukhari​

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/...?Doc=0&Rec=4754​

other links:​

http://hadith.al-islam.com/display/...Doc=0&Rec=10313​

http://hadith.al-islam.com/display/...Doc=0&Rec=10313​

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=4&Rec=5466 ​

I don't think so, the title of this thread is catstevens - some mistakes you're making so you are talking to me!let's speak in Arabic I know your point, but isn't stupid.​

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what's the problem read it in Arabic reply in English if you can wrtie or speak it , OK OK I wil continue in English​

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Again, Muslims were killed by Muslims (companions) because they apostatized and they didn't wage any wars or rebellion or whatever,​

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/...?Doc=0&Rec=4754​

other links:​

http://hadith.al-islam.com/display/...Doc=0&Rec=10313​

http://hadith.al-islam.com/display/...Doc=0&Rec=10313​

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=4&Rec=5466 ​

The Haddeeth is too clear (Kill who changed his religion) whether he waged a war or he didn't. And again, There are two opinions of the scholars, I leave t to them, Here are the both opinions to whoever wants to know more about this issue, http://www.islamonline.net/English/contemporary/2006/04/article01.shtml​

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This is true, we shouldn't follow such haddeeths, but this Haddeeth doesn't counter it at all.​

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Peace and love ​

Yours Sincerely,​

Cat Stevens​

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many of your links dont work.

anyways, i have a feeling these are the ones you are using: