The punishment of apostasy in Christianity-Judaism (Bible)

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Hi everyone, I hope you all are fine and happy today and everyday, Amen =)​

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Source
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I already wrote about this issue in many posts as a response to irrelevant posts, so I think it is better to post it in new thread, for a summary Click here
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Apostasy in Islam 2 opinions Click here
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Instant Death to Apostates (those who desert their religion) in the Bible's Old and New Testaments
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By: Osama Abdallah
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answering-christianity.com/death.htm
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Some additions and deletions was made by Steven [me =) ]
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It is often believed that the Bible gives absolute religious freedom to ​

everyone. Most of the Christians in the United States and the West think that the freedom of choice and speech that they have comes originally from the Bible. Let's just see how accurate this myth really is.​

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In the Old Testament
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Let us look at Deuteronomy 13:6-11 (NIV) "If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying: Let us go and worship other gods (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other, or gods of other religions), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one among you will do such an evil thing again. "
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Also let us look at Deuteronomy 17:2-7 (NIV+KJV)" If a man or woman living among you in one of the towns the LORD gives you is found doing … violation of his covenant and contrary to my command has worshiped other gods (hath gone and served other gods …either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded), bowing down to them or to the sun or the moon or the stars of the sky…then you must investigate it thoroughly. If it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death…The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.
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2 Chronicles 15:13 "All who would not seek the LORD, the God of Israel, were to be put to death, whether small or great, man or woman."
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I continue in other post…
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Peace and love
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Cat Stevens' latest threads
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My sig
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Note: Silly, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style losers' fate , ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!
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The following is by: Sami Zaatari
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Some additions and deletions was made by Steven [me =) ]
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Recently Christians have been running around excited about one incident in Afghanistan were a Muslim who converted to Christianity is about to be sentenced to death. One Christian website said: ​

“Islam is a religion which is very active in seeking to make converts. It MUST change and learn to grant freedom to Muslims to convert to another faith without penalty. In the twenty-first century Islam can no longer continue to be a one-way street, which people may enter but can never
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Leave''…Ah yes the typical Christian game of lets grant justice to all, and that we Christians are peace loving people…the man … I’m sure he knows nothing about and was most likely lied to by a couple of missionaries who offered him money and food if he accepted Jesus. It is the man's own loss… Anyway, let us now deal with the law of apostasy in Christianity, something Christians are very silent on. They often preach about freedom to convert, and the rights of minorities and all, but let us read their own Bible: Deuteronomy Chapter 13 NIV… 12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in 13 that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt. 17 None of those condemned things shall be found in your hands, so that the LORD will turn from his fierce anger; he will show you mercy, have compassion on you, and increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your forefathers, 18 because you obey the LORD your God, keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.
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So as you can see, the punishment of apostasy in Christianity is DEATH, and not only that, the one who tries to convert you is also to be put the death!!!! [Deuteronomy 13:10] Note even whole cities are to be destroyed!!!!
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So Christians are the last one to talk about the punishment of apostasy, since the punishment for apostasy according to the Bible is DEATH.
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What will Christians now say? Will they come up with the typical lie they always say when put in a hole that 'oh no we don’t have to follow the OT anymore'. That has become quite a famous line now, anyways, I would like the Christian to show me where this rule has been abrogated or told to not be followed. I have not seen it in the NT.
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Secondly, note the ending of the verse [Deuteronomy 13:18: … keeping all his commands that I am giving you today], it says KEPP ALL HIS COMMANDMENTS, which also include this command to kill apostates and those who try to convert you. Let us read what Jesus said in the NT:
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Luke10: 25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied.
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Luke 18:
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18. A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
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19. "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.
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20. You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.' " for more verse about what Jesus said about the law, commandments OT read post3
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So as Jesus himself said, you know the commandments don’t you? Yes, you do, so as Jesus said follow them. And what do we read at the end of Deuteronomy 13: 18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the LORD thy God
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So it says keep the commandments, which included killing apostates and those who try to convert you, what did Jesus say? Keep the commandments, ALL OF THEM. Which includes this law of apostasy. "Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets (Matthew 5:17-18)
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So Christians are the LAST to be talking about freedom to convert. This is just a typical missionary tactic, which is becoming very common now, this also shows how pathetic Christian missionaries really are, and it does show how pathetic some Christian people are also, since they always come preaching how bad Islam is and how Christianity grants freedom for all, obviously they talk from ignorance since most Christians have never even read their own Bible. I am not trying to be offensive in saying that, but it is true, Christians should start reading their own Bible… Go read your own Bible Christians, stop preaching it to us when you don’t even know what it preaches,
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I continue in other post….
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Peace and love
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Cat Stevens' latest threads
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My sig
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Note: Silly, repeated, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style losers' fate , ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!
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In the New Testament by Jesus and Paul
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Jesus
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Note: Please pay close attention to my red emphasis below.
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Let us look at what Jesus said in the New Testament in context:
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Matthew 15:1-9
1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
2 "Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don't wash their hands before they eat!"
3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'
5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,'
6he is not to 'honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
8 " 'These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'"
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There are few points to notice here:
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1- Notice in verse 3, Jesus rebuked the Pharisees for breaking the Commands of GOD Almighty.
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2- In verse 4, he used the cursing of parents' punishment as an example. The context, however, is not limited to just this example! Jesus was following the OT, he hadn't come to abolish it or to abolish its law.
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3- In verses 7,8 and 9, he used a quote from the book of Isaiah in the Old Testament, to further prove that they are not following the Commands of GOD Almighty.
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4- Jesus clearly had a problem with them not following the punishment of death for cursing the parents or any punishment of death that is commanded in the OT for this matter! In fact, Jesus himself said:
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"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
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"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.' (Matthew 23:1-3)"
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For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:20)
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This clearly means:
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1- Jesus absolutely approved and commanded the following of the OT's Laws regarding apostates!
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2- The fact he commanded death penalty for cursing the parents clearly proves that he also approves of killing apostates as clearly shown in the OT verses above!
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There is no question that Jesus approved of killing apostates, exactly as killing those who mistreat their parents! Jesus was following the OT. He hadn't come to abolish it or to abolish its law.
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For more about the law (Jesus didn't abolish the law OT) click
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Here
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Then read this (2)
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(3)
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(4)
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Then read this (5)
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I continue in other post…
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Peace and love
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Cat Stevens' latest threads
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My sig
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Note: Silly, repeated, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style losers' fate , ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!
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Paul
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Note: I don't care about what Paul said, the following is written by Osama for any comments on this you can send it to him by using this link
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http://www.answering-christianity.com/emailme.htm
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Discuss OT's verses with me if you want to (post1)
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Let us look at Romans 1:20-32 (from the New Testament) " For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23. and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. 24. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. 26. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30. slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31. they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death (worthy of death KJV-They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, NLT-They know God has said that all who do such things should die NLV), they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."
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Leviticus 20:27 "And as for a man or woman in whom there proves to be a mediumistic spirit or spirit of prediction, they should be put to death without fail. They should pelt them to death with stones. Their own blood is upon them."
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The above verses clearly show that the Bible doesn't tolerate apostates. Jesus did honor the Old Testament's laws and ordered his followers to follow the Old Testament until the day of Judgment:
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"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
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Christians always say as an excuse that an Old Testament law does not apply to them. According to Matthew 5:17-18, we clearly see that Jesus honored the Old Testament, and forced Christians to follow the unmodified laws of it that have not been replaced by newer ones in the New Testament. The Old Testament as we clearly see above orders the immediate killing of apostates/renegades. The New Testament as we also clearly see above, orders the death of the apostates/renegades. And according to Matthew 5:17-18 above, apostates/renegades in Christianity must be put to death simultaneously.
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By the way, please visit: Christians are obligated to follow the Old Testament.
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Also, during the middle centuries when the Church used to rule over everything, the minority Christians and the Christian Scientists were slaughtered and put to death by the majority ones just because the Priests and Ministers of the High Church decided to call as "heresies" or "apostates". The Bible does give clear authority to the Priests and Ministers to call someone an apostate:
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"The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment. (1 Corinthians 2:15)"
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The Bible in both the Old and New Testaments command the killing of apostates, and those who disagree need to produce their proofs.
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After all, the Medieval Churches during the middle centuries, who used to persecute minority Christians and Jews, were not deviants after all! They were simply following their bible
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Peace and love
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Cat Stevens' latest threads
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My sig
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Note: Silly, repeated, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style losers' fate , ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!
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Well, I'll say this:

1. Jesus may or may not have actually wanted to kill the Pharisees. Probably he just wanted to make clear how far from truly being righteous they were. That one's debatable, and not my major point.

2. Just because Christianity agrees with Islam, by saying in it's Bible that apostates must be killed, doesn't make it right for Islam to be killing apostates. I say that such a law is clearly not a law from God, not any God worth worshipping, because of all things, does not God give us choice? If we choose something else, it is for God to punish him, not mere men, right? Tell me if this is not what you believe; I could be far off. But it seems to me foolish that God would be commanding his followers to kill people.

 

TrippinBTM​

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Who is talkinfg about this?​

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Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
In verses 7,8 and 9, he used a quote from the book of Isaiah in the Old Testament, to further prove that they are not following the Commands of GOD Almighty.​

when they didn't follow God's commandments then this make it clear how far from truly being righteous they were​

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Muslims do not care about what Christianity says about the punishment of apostates, i.e. Muslims do not need anything outside Quraan and Sunnah to make the punishment of apostates right for Islam.​

First of all, do you believe in God? if No, see ya.​

Peace and love
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Note: Silly, repeated, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style losers' fate , ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!​

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most christians completely ignore the rules of the old testament and most would be surprissed how barbaric some laws were.

 

mr.morrison​

Very true​

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Peace and love
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Note: Silly, repeated, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style losers' fate , ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!​

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TrippinBTM-

Islam imposes no secular penalty for simple apostacy and this conclusively established on the basis of the Holy Quran and the practice of the Holy Prophet.

I dont care what any Islamic jurist says on this subject.

Quranic law is supposed to be universal and this is what it says:

There shall be no compulsion in religion, for guidance and error have been clearly distinguished (2:257).

catstevens and islamic "scholars" use hadith to justify killing an apostate.

but hadith come third in islamic law- they cant be used when they contradict the quran and they were written 300 years after the prophet.

its that simple to me.

not to mention the prophet's actions speak much louder then his supposed words. he didnt kill for apostacy:

http://www.alislam.org/books/apostacy/12.html

http://www.alislam.org/books/apostacy/12.html#hadees

http://www.alislam.org/books/apostacy/11.html#hadees

theres lots more examples.

catstevens is not an islamic scholar. please dont treat him as such.

he might be right in saying that christianity/judaism justified this punishment, but is completely wrong when he says islam does.

 

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Then why did you make this thread? If it's true that Muslims don't care what christians do, then so what? ​

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My main point was that Christian hypocricy does not excuse Muslim barbarism. ​

 

TrippinBTM​

read post 1 it is a response to an off topic post, read the quote, I already wrote why I made this thread.​

If this is a comment on what I said above, then what I actually said was:​

Muslims do not care about what Christianity says about the punishment of apostates, i.e. Muslims do not need anything outside Quraan and Sunnah to make the punishment of apostates right for Islam.​

(= *Peace and love* =)
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Yours Sincerely,
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Cat Stevens
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Note: Silly, repeated, Irrelevant, and the like, responses, posts, comments will be ignored (it depends on my mood and time if I won't ignore them), taking off the topic is losers' style losers' fate , ask yourself: will you write such response if the writer wasn't a Muslim!
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