Intelligent people do not believe in god(s) or practise a religion

The pity is that I wasted 20+ years of my life on an imaginary thing.

 

Yes, 20+ and every single minute of your life that you seem to talk about such an imaginary thing (ofcourse along with your "research"), even actually talking about it right now... is just a waste of time. It is always better to think about carpentry or something technical, it would have been productive atleast.

 

No, it's not a waste of time if I can help convince others and lift their lives up from the dogma.

No waste of time AT ALL.

You mistake that I am "attacking God". Which is absurd because I don't believe in "God".

I am attacking and refuting dogma.

So, take your straw man elsewhere.

 

So it is not a waste of time at all? trying to convince peole to lift their lives up from the dogma, okay then, lets just assume Jedi here is the needy man who deserves emancipation from the dogmatic trappings of religion , Pray tell how you will wipe his delusions from his slate clean.

 

I don't wipe them clean. I'm not some messiah, Jedi.

I merely engage in discussion (which you are well aware of) with others and see where it all leads.

Just as I would try to help my friends or family from doing something possibly harmful, I try to show others that religion isn't all what's it cracked up to be. Sometimes I get through, other times I don't.

There is no magic behind it.

 

Think of a time Machine. Imagine you could go to July 10th, 2030 as you mentioned. You could see the events, but had to promise not to change anything. You went back to presant day and knew what would happen. Do you now, as 2006 you, have all power over 2030 you? I don't think so, but we also seem to be differing a lot on that one topic of what all knowing means.

 

What I am saying that such discussion is useless because discussing imaginary things will not get you anywhere, ofcourse, if you are engaging in discussion with ideas that you already have in mind in order to convince others to your viewpoint, then I do not see how this is not acting like a messiah.

 

wth that said, I will leave you to your dogma, may you succeed in lifting yourself from your own dogma instead of wasting time in discussing other's . Good luck to ya!.

 

Libertine, I would like you to know though, that I am not a slave to any form of "church" or anything like that. I have my beleifs about God, which I constantly grow in my beleifs, but I don't feel at all bound to any specific "Doctrine" or "Church". I am not a slave to a system of tradition or anything, as I also feel people are.

 

I just refuted the Time Machine argument, rayne. Of course, in a time machine you could go to the future and watch or record events, but you have to understand-- I would still be going with my present limited scope of power.

"God" is the apparent "cause" of everything, you said so yourself. "He" set in motion all the events leading up to your actions, from the creation of the universe.

We have free will (of the kind required for moral responsibility) only if WE are the ultimate causes (sources, originators, first causes) of our actions.

But, since you say that "God" is, then everything else follows according to the "plan"--the foreknown plan.

If "God" has INFALLIBLE FOREKNOWLEDGE of the decisions and even thoughts and desires you have, no situation can possibly deviate from that which is known WILL take place. It will take place. For If God has infallible foreknowledge that tomorrow you will engage in some activity, then you must invariably engage in that activity and there is no alternative.

 

Sayōnara!

 

If God knows I will ingage in that activity, it is because I chose to. He just knew it would happen before it did.

""God" is the apparent "cause" of everything, you said so yourself. "He" set in motion all the events leading up to your actions, from the creation of the universe."
Where did I say that? I said God created the universe, and everything in it. But then he gave us feww will. If that means he is the cause of all our actions, then doesnt the big bang or evolution dictate all your actions?

 

Rayne, you are claiming that "God" has such power that could fall into the realms of the absurd, first of all.

Second of all, you admit that "God" has omniscience, yet somehow deny that you must do what he "knows" will happen, by saying that he only "knows" like some outside observer who had nothing to do with the make-up of the totality of things -- AND THEN, you frankly stated that "God" created everything and set it in motion, yet you deny that this would hold him responsible for the clockwork mechanism of "cause and effect"?!? WTF?

We are not talking "finite" beings in a time machine, we are speaking of the "author" of all things here.

Take this, for instance. Here's an analogy I have borrowed:

Fourteen billion years ago, God created the universe. At the instant of creation, God knew the precise details of every event during the entire history of the newly-created universe. He knew how the hydrogen would disperse, and eventually condense to form stars and galaxies. He knew which stars would go nova in order to create the elements that will form planets, and He knew which planets would form in orbits suitable to develop and sustain life. He knew how the moon would orbit the Earth, making tides and washing the beaches. He knew where and when the first self-replicating molecules would form, and when the first amphibians would step onto land. He knew about the rise and fall of the reptiles, dinosaurs, birds, mammals, flowering plants and all the other freak accidents that directed the genetic flow through the millions of generations of plants and animals - the meteor strikes, forest fires, plagues, floods and landslides. He knew exactly what would happen to every single one of your ancestors - who would be born, who would die, who would marry whom, and so on, until you appeared. He knew everything that would happen to you in your life - where you would go to school, your exam grades, what jobs you had, where you lived, why you decided to build a shelf, where you earned the money to buy the hammer, where you made marks on the wall to get the shelf nice and level. All these things He knew would come to be as he Created the universe, right up to the exact microsecond that the hammer hit your thumb. When He created it all, He did so sure in the knowledge that at a certain point in time, you would be swearing loudly and holding your thumb under the cold tap (as well as, of course, everything else happening in the universe at that time). God created the universe so that events would unfold in this exact manner. He could have made it so that you were never born, or so that humans never appeared. He could have made it so that every single thing happened differently, or everything was the same apart from your accident.

SO...

If God has infallible foreknowledge that tomorrow you will engage in event X, then you must invariably engage in event X.

Therefore, free-will is not possible since you have no alternative except to engage in event X. In the event that you do not fulfil event X, then God is not omniscient. Alternatively, if you engage in event X, then you don't have free-will on account of the inability to choose another alternative.


PS. I'M GOING TO TURN IN FOR THE NIGHT. BE BACK TOMORROW.

 

If God knows what that person is going to choose how does that take out freewill?

If you set a bowl of Nails in front of your kid, then set a bowl of candy right beside it. You know hes going to pick the candy right? Even though you know which one he is going to pick before hand dose not take away his choice. You simply used logic.

Correct me if i'm wrong. But it seems like your saying God has a list of "(insert name) Is going to do this today" The thing is God *dosen't* have a list. Just because God can logicly make the correct assumtion does not mean he takes out free will. He is still omniscient because his logic is never wrong Keep in mind God knows more about us then you do your own son.

If you understand everything about your son, aware of all your sons actions 24/7 and Have the insight of a father for X amount of years. Do belive you can make the correct logical answer when your sons goes to make a choice?

Now for the IF.

If you take the bible for Truth, then God exist out side of time. Able to see your past, present, and future actions he *knows* what you are going to do because hes already seen you do it. It dosen't rule out free will, because he simply saw you choose before you chose....Existing outside of time and all


Meh, just my 2cents worth.

 

Thanks! That is pretty much the point I was trying to make! Knowing what events will happen doens't mean that you have complete control over them. God knows what will happen because it will happen, he doesn't know what will happen because he makes it happen. It isn't that you have no choice to act ouside of that, it is that he knows what you will wind up doing. Just like if you watch a movie for a second time, you will know how it will end. Does that mean that is how you wanted it to end? Not neccesairlly. Does that mean you have power over the ending? No. All it means is that you have seen it, and know invariably what will happen. Does that take away the writter, director, and actors free will? Absolutely not! They made the movie how they wanted.

If you are playing a video game and are on a level where you have played so much you know everything coming up next, does that mean you have control over it? Does it mean you WANT it that way?

It is difficult, or maybe even impossible to give a complete example of it, because the whole concept of an all-knowing and timeless being is "illogical" because it trancends all of our limitations.



You say you have been set free form a Dogma, but isn't it horribly depressing beleiving there is nothing else, and no purpose? No afterlife, no reincarnation just an end? How does that affect you when a loved one dies? What is the purpose of living then, is there even one?

 

You both are missing the point by comparing an OMNI-MAX deity to a HUMAN BEING.

We have limited powers and limited knowledge. WE DID NOT CREATE AND SET INTO MOTIONS THE TOTALITY OF EVENTS TO HAPPEN. GOD DID.

So, your "time machine" and other fallacious arguments do not follow, because they are FALSE ANALOGIES.

If "God" KNOWS what is going to happen, THERE IS NO ALTERNATIVE.

There is no "free will", because there is no way you could have chosen otherwise than what "God" already knew you would.

If so, prove it. Prove you could have chosen otherwise. Do something and try to take "God" by surprise...catch "him" off guard... ready? GO!

Secondly, "time" is a human method of measurement. Matter/Energy cannot be created or destroyed and the "Spinozan substance" is infinite. And as Einstein stated, TIME IS RELATIVE!

You both claim that just because "God" knows something will happen doesn't mean he "causes" it. No, DIRECTLY, I suppose he doesn't float down from his cloud and twist your arm, but if "God" K-N-O-W-S you will choose something, THERE IS NO OPTION OTHERWISE. Thus, YOU have no other choice but to do it-- if you want to call that "free", then I have a "free" car and house you can have. All paid for.


Let me ask you this: Does all the power in the universe come from "god"? Do all the "choices" come from "god"? Does "god" already know what choices you'll make? If so, why did he create me and let me "sin" and go to hell? That says a lot for "his" unconditional mercy.

Even I (mere human being) would not allow my son to be tortured to death even he if so-called "chose" it. But, I suppose I have more mercy and compassion for those who suffer than "God". If "God" really the power to do anything (and if that which is absurd according to rayne), "he" could've created a world without suffering and sacrifice (much like heaven) without any sort of "test"--any sort of sin and the free will to choose only the good, better or best. No evil. And if he had all MERCY and UNCONDITIONAL LOVE it would surely follow that he would do that which is greater than any mere mortal's mercy and love, by creating the "perfect world". I would've and I don't have anywhere near the "mercy" and "love" claimed of this "God".

When you say "free will", what you are really saying is "freedom" to make a consequential choice that "God" already knows you're going to make.

Something just doesn't add up here.

See, I believe that "God" is the universe if anything and that Jesus was an enlightment teacher who taught in metaphors and parables. The "true hell" is when you do that which is contrary to love and it has nothing to do with the "afterlife", physical fire or supernatural boogeymen.

 

I answered this in the above post.

SO, feel free to respond to it.

Oh no, it's not. I do believe in many things--freedom, equality, mercy, true justice (not revenge), peace, harmony, a since of brotherhood, a sense of oneness with nature. I enjoy the simple pleasures of life on a greater scale. I have lots of purpose and lots of love. No need for some sky daddy for that! No need for some "heaven".

I have learned to hold life even more precious now that we just have one to live. I've learned to hold my daughter more, play with my son more, talk to my wife more and open my eyes to many things that I took for granted.

Becoming free from religion is the best thing that ever happened to me. I feel freer and more aware than I've ever felt in my entire life.

I don't just have ONE PURPOSE, but many.

And I have no one in the sky to thank for it. Just me. And that's reality.

And what about you? WHAT REASON OR EVIDENCE do you have for believing in a "God"?

 

That is true, however just because he *knows* its going to happen. Dosen't mean he *made* it happen. Like you said he isn't twisting our arms.

There is no alternative because he knows the *choice* *I'm* going to make. He dosen't make it for me. He knows 100% what I'm going to do. And yes that rules out any alternative for the end product, not the process to get there.

 

Once you do become free from religion everything does become better. It allows you to live your life not because thats how it is suposed to be lived, but because you actully want to live it that way. Yes I do belive in God but that dosen't mean I support religion. Simply put I belive my God would rather have a relationship then a religion *cough*crusades*cough*. The foundation of my life,morals, and choices are based on three things.

Love God
Love People
Love Yourself(by this I don't mean in arrogance or egotism but simply love yourself for what you are, how you look, how you treat your body)

In order to belive in God you don't have to be a part of a religion. Religon puts man before your God.

 

Like Kris, I am not part of a religion. I beleive in God, and think that religion can be, if it is not always, a bad thing. But how does one define religion? I think religion is the beleif of rituals, and a hierarchy that makes one people or person holier than others. I beleive in a faith, or spiritual relationship. But I think those are personal and between you and the God you worship.
I am not saying the christian version of God is completely correct. I don't think it is. I am not saying that God necesarilly sends people to Hell. I am not saying everything in the Bible is infallible. I am saying I beleive in God, by whatever name, and beleive in having a personal relationship with Him.