So, I understand what I've been taught in the Lutheran tradition about worship: the liturgy is designed so that we hear God's word, and then we can come freely to the communion table and share in community with others. But the thing is, I feel more in touch with God during yoga, meditation, listening to the tamboura, or when I am "chemically altered." In a real way, how could we make Christian worship more mystical in America without abandoning the real meaning of Christian traditions? I've done Taize prayer services at night and that is the closest I've come. Any thoughts?
Stop acting like the Bible is the end-all of God's word. The bible is ancient and removed from people. God has to exist today. In our lives. If one could look at the bible, and teach it not as literal history, but a mystical, symbolic mythos, it'd be more real. And by mythos I don't mean it's "just a story." Myth is not falsehood or fiction. It's not real, either, though, not literally. It's talking about something in common language, but it can't stop at the common language. Stop talking about the resurrection as if it happened once and once only. See it as a symbol talking about how we can have resurrection in our own life. The apocolypse isn't a literal event-to-come, it's a spiritual event-to-come. The end of the world means the end of OUR world, our old world which is our egoic selfishness, to be destroyed in favor of spiritual rebirth. Those are just examples, ideas. But there has to be more to Christianity than moral exhortations, feelings of guilt over sins we keep making, and this absolute, unbridgable gulf between us and god. Contact has to be reestablished. Jesus talked about this himself, somewhere in the Gospel of John, where he said he'd become one with God, and one with us, and so we could all be one unity; Jesus as The Bridge, perhaps. I mean, if God is ineffable (undescribable), why do we try to describe him in the bible, and cling so tightly to those failing words? Words can't touch God, so you must move beyond them (though not abandon them). Meditation touches on that, right? ps what's tamboura?
i dont see how meditation and any type of dogma should have anything to do with each other at all. there does seem to be a merging going on, i have even seen christen tarrot cards,
i think you are really on to something, meditation on God in my opinion will get people more in touch with God then a 'traditional' church ever could be a sevice alone. I do not also think that meditation, yoga, drugs etc take anything away from christianity, it would to very extreme christians, but i can only see a person relationship with God improving because of said exercises.
I'm not sure what you mean by this. What is the real meaning of Christian traditions that you like and don't want to abandon? However you get close to God that works for you is what's important. God will know whether it's a good thing or not, and it's up to God to transform people's lives. But that works with you too, because you'll lead by example.
The only thing you listed that I personaly don't agree with are Drugs. I belive we are suposed to keep self control and In a sober(?) state of mind. I also read somewhere that in the NT some places where it says "socercy" actully the greek word where we get drugs from. But then again, thats my conviction and not yours. Only real thing you can do is pray!
well, what i'm seeing out of this , most of all the communal table thing,, and much of what jesus spoke about and what i feel the Holy Bible is really trying to open up for us, is living in the Garden here on earth,, where brother and sister can come together communally and live in the Peace that you find personally in Yoga and on drugs (mushrooooms for me =D),, how could we bring this back to humanity,, really plant seeds that we'll SEE bloom -humanities spiritual boquete,, how can we bring back this raising of vibration?? well, i think the Bible is trying to do that, so are many other religions,, at least any religion that emphasises the Love that Brings us Together,, I don't know of anything other then just loving the best i can, and being the best person i can be,,, i dont have too much conscious faith in the belief that one day this gracious Loving Spirit will flourish throughout - but i do think it'd be beautiful one day,, and i do know that sometimes just being true to Love and Harmony, you can have someone really think and learn something, to where maybe, when that guy or girl lives on, in the future, they'll bring Peace to situations where they once wouldda been not so harmoneous before, i'm personally not much into reffering people to the Bible at all, even though i love talking about religion,, and even though i'm saying here that the Bible is probably a great example of a movement or instruction guide to bringing the Garden to Earth,, where, like this thread's all about, brother and sister can come other , diverse energies together, and be in harmony and peace,, the bible teaches compassion and empathy, love and humbleness,, maybe that's the receipe for the communal table =P? who knows,, peace!
Silent meditation and hatha-yoga are in a practical sense neutral techniques, though they did originate with Vedic and Buddhist traditions. Their purpose is to perpetuate good bodily health and stamina and lead to one-pointed concentration. There is no sound philosophical reason why Christians cannot utilize these techniques. The main objection that I have heard from Christians is that basic yogic techniques are a form of occult practice. This is a misconception. St.Luke Chapter 11, verse 34, can easily be interpreted as a reference to yogic concepts, specifically the idea of the spiritual "third eye": The light of the body is the eye: therefore when thine eye is single, thy whole body also is full of light; but when thine eye is evil, thy body also is full of darkness. Bhakti, or theistic devotional yoga, does incorporate practices and precepts which would be objectionable to many Christians. These include image worship, repetitive chanting, use of scripture other than the Bible, and the assertion that the historical Jesus Christ, though divine, does not occupy an exclusive spiritual position.
I feel the same way, Molly. Christianity does have a rich history of mysticism and mystical practices. I would keep up the meditation and yoga, no reason to give up the things that bring you to God because some folks think its against Christianity. I would also read about/the works of people like Sts. John of the Cross and Theresa of Avila. Really trippy writing from some bona fide saints.
What I meant by Christian traditions are things like baptism and communion. These traditions are actually referred to in the four gospels, and in one of Paul's letters (1 Corinthians). And they're great and all. But sometimes..I feel God most when I have experiences that can't even be put into words, or proper words of worship.
TrippinBTM --- The tamboura is the Indian instrument that always forms the base of ragas, and sitar music. It only has four strings, and it plays the tones 5-1-1. It's that drone sound. I played one in a college course I took and I would like to buy one. Spook13 --- The repetitive chanting you talked about is what one does in Taize worship. This community was started in the early 20th century in Taize France. You sing the same line over and over, or maybe a few short verses over and over. There must be something in the human being that is spiritually hardwired to experience communion with God when chanting. Why else would different people from all over the world experience such a feeling of peace/love/joy/ecstasy when chanting? P.S. There is a Hare Krishna/ISKCON temple right near me. I worshipped there a few times and, unfortunately, I experienced some of the same kind of paltry gossiping and judging that I've seen in churches too. We're all human Persephone ---> Yes, I do need to read more St. John of the Cross. I came across him a few years ago.
Actually Spook, some of these things can be found - or very similar things - in Christian traditions, mainly Catholic and Orthodoxy. Image worship - although not called that, has long been a feature of Catholicism, whether it is praying to a statue of the Blessed Virgin, or the 'Holy Face' devotion. The Orthodox venerate Ikons, bowing to them and kissing them. Repetitive chanting and prayer are used by the Orthodox. The most famous example being the 'Jesus prayer' (Jesus Christ son of God have mercy upon me) as practiced by the Heyschasts. But also, the saying of the Rosary is a similar thing. Both are great mystical writers. My own preference is for Teresa - Also there is the work of Miester Eckhart and many other great Christian mystics and saints.
Communion. look at the word, it means "uniting with." Not only coming together as a community (same word), but communing with God (same word again). It's symbolic, eating his flesh, drinking his blood...not literally, but spiritually, bringing the Christ-consciousness inside and letting it become you (as our food becomes our body). It's not the act, it's the meaning behind the act. But I think everyone focuses on the act these days, especially the Catholics with their idiotic idea of Transsubstantiation, where the bread and wine supposedly LITERALLY become Jesus' body and blood. Not only repulsive, but entirely missing the point. Spirituality is nearly dead in the modern Church. But I guess that makes sense since we are such a materialistic world. I doubt anyone really even believes in God. Clearly we only look at the physical aspects of reality these days, even if we give lip service to the spiritual. Even our religions are materialistic.
Bill and Molly...yes, there are definite elements of bhakti in Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, but the average adherents of these faiths at best regard the Krishna-bhakti tradition as Hindu superstition. And fundamentalist/evangelical Christians...to them it's paganism or Satan himself. Molly...sorry to hear of your experience with the ISKCON temple...we're all human, as you say; very few saints out there anywhere. There are many, many good, sincere souls in ISKCON. It's too bad that the obnoxious members sometimes draw attention away from them and the essential philosophy. Regarding repetitive prayer: I'm familiar with the Rosary, Jesus Prayer, etc. My point: Protestant fundies use Matthew, Chapter 6, Verse 7, "But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking", as an excuse to condemn repetitive prayer of any type. The more I analyze it: fundamentalist/evangelical Christians seem to be bent on the demonization and destruction of any mystical elements in Christianity...to establish it as a text-only religion, with all pathways to deep personal experience purged away
I fear you are right Spook. And it's a shame, because there are, as we say, mystical traditions there....In effect, I think a lot of modern Christianity has lost any deep connection with the Divine. However - there are also postive signs. There is more of an interest these days in mysticism among some Christians. And also more of an acceptance of other spiritual traditions - but in my experience this is more or less limited to a few more enlightened souls. On the subject of Protestantism - actually, there are hardly any protestant mystics, or at least my own studies have uncovered very few. In turn, I feel myself that this is connected with a narrowing down of tradition - making it more of a wordly thing.The rejection of the Blessed Virgin and the Saints is one such thing, but there are many others too. In effect, they'd like to reject all tradition I think, and return, as you suggest, to a wholly text based religion, where of course, the true meanings in the texts will remain hidden from them. Sheer arrogance as far as I can see.....
I have pentecostal belifes (mind you I'm not going to run around drinking posion and holding deadly sankes!) But I do belive that in sincere worship that your Spirit does talk to G-d in tounges unknown. I pray, fast, and meditate(a chance for me to reflect and give G-d his turn to talk) and I try to reflect Christ in my outward and inward life. I said all that to stress one thing. In my time as a "christian" I've come to learn one thing. Being Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, or Prostant for that matter is just that! Being Baptist dosen't make you a Christian neither does being Catholic. The word Christian was coined by the people of Antioch (if I remeber they were pagans) They called the Disciples Christian because of how the acted. Its not in the word its in the persons heart! Christ never told us to call ourselves Christians! We use that term to losely. The church is suposed to be the body of Christ where we each make up a part of the body...Now in most cases the Church is a bussiness of sorts...and void of any thing Christ or the Apostles taught in the 4 Gospels and Acts....When is the last time a "christian" openly admited to speaking in tounges and going into a trance during worship?
Bill...yes, I was referring to Protestant evangelicals. It seems like they're still in the middle of the Reformation with their attitude toward liturgical Christian denominations...a lot of 500-year-old hatred still shows.
Wait until we have words for them (these experiences). I wonder when the word for blue was first used by man?
Well, I am more universalist/christian in my beleifs, so I have NO PROBLEM incorperating things like yoga and meditaion and stuff into my relationship with God. Yoga calms and relaxes me physically, mentally and spiritually. I feel more open especially durring the time when I lay in corpse position after doing the more active poses. I just relax and clear my mind, sort of like meditation. I have had very mild trips/buzz like feeling from doing this, and I have also had something like visions like this. However, since I beleive that there are MANY ways to have relationships with God, I am probably not the person you were directing that to.
