Marijuana & Coordination

Many a time has the idea that marijuana is a depressant (as a conclusion from reaction time observations) been raised and used and accepted when considering stoned coordination.



Now this is an interesting point and perhaps the main one that got me thinking that marijuana wasn’t a depressant in the first place, when I realised the common notion of the way marijuana effects coordination and reaction are wrong. Looking at this can get complex, to a point beyond how ive come to grips with articulating, but the basic point can be made:
marijuana does not depress coordination, or reaction. It does however (seemingly paradoxically) make it harder to make accurate or complex movements but at the same time make it easier to master such movements. It all comes down to how you approach a given task.

Normally, we activate our bodies mostly through automation. The mind most often does not think the whole way through a given movement, it sets up an expected movement with a few cues, and the brain automates a response to this by combining accesses to the cerebellum to string together appropriate movements to achieve such an expectation, filling the gaps between the cues.

When stoned, this automation is replaced by a conscious control of movement; there is more emphasis on cues and less on automatic reaction. Less automation, more control. If a person uses the controlling input of an automotive process to a manual process, the result is going to be incomplete and sloppy.



Just like (but not directly anomalous to) a car. An automatic driver is used to having the car change gears for them, so if they drive a manual car, they’ll prolly drive it shit. However a manual driver can drive a manual car much better than an automatic driver can drive an auto, simply because a reactive mind can make more appropriate decisions of control than a systematic reaction.

But its not as simple of that of course. A manual driver, in order to make the best decisions, must have identified, and be aware of inner conditions and environmental conditions in order to make the best choice of gear, whereas automatic systems work this out for the driver. Such inner conditions include observing the numerical rpm, as well as listening to the engine to determine it’s strain. Also included are ideas about what youre going to do next, how many gears you wish to shift up to, whether there are corner approaching; what is coming next. Environmental observations include static ones like the slope of a certain road that is being driven on, and the weight of the car, and dynamic ones such the various directions of acceleration and thus force being applied to a car when turning or in certain road conditions.



So how does this apply to being stoned and moving? Well most basically it is the case that when stoned, you have to put a lot more thought and consideration into movements, but due to the fact that there is more conscious control over movement, more reactive, fluid movements can be achieved. This can only happen if youre aware of the requirements. Just like any driver who was not informed of a manual type car is not going to simply work out that they have to be changing gear, theyre gonna assume the car is just a shitty car that wont go past a certain speed.

I have been able to dynamic processes while stoned much better than when sober. They key is what youre concentrating on. When sober, a concentration is more on goals of actions, even if theyre the goal of moving your leg forward. When stoned, you must rely more on actually following through that leg movement the whole way through, controlling the muscles themselves. This is where the dosage that youre at is an important factor and where the car analogy doesn’t work. There are many different levels of automation. There are levels on gross movement, individual limbs/body parts, muscle sections within those body parts, and then individual muscles within each muscle section. Depending on how stoned you are, different levels of automation are going to be effected. When sober, there is of course not total automation (and remember – when sober, we are not forced into automation, it is just the preferred state, and cannot really be overcome unless consciously or subconsciously these concepts of control are understood or constructed), for we can chose whether to move our individual fingers in any way we want. But we generally don’t, we think of a movement, and the automated processes comply. When slightly stoned, it generally isnt that noticeable, the effects. When we get rather stoned, it can seem that we get uncoordinated because when doing tasks, a movement of the hand, or a readjustment of a leg for balance might be left out leading to minor or major disasters. now, usually we bring out the controlling side in consciousness when the automatic comes to situations it cant handle. Frustrating times for example are usually only overcome when we stop and rationally think for a moment, instead of frustratedly repeating an action in often vein hope that it will work. When stoned, the automation is less able to do more tasks, so we are more likely to come to a situation where conscious control is required but where we are in the mental grips of both stonedness and frustration and so do not realise the need for conscious control. This can lead to many movements being followed through for too long, because the mind is used to having automated processes realise when an expectation has been met or not.

Animal models will not be able to test this because animals do not have the conscious ability to think through such problems, they rely almost totally on these automated structures (depends on the animal though).



So in the case of being glued to the couch? Are our legs immobilised as they would be if very drunk or on valium? Or is it merely a case of having to identify, be aware of, and manipulate our bodies on a level we are almost never required to function at?



In studying this phenomenom, I have of course found myself in situations where initially it seems that my legs are glued to the couch. But then with these concepts ive mentioned in mind (and thinking back to times of being couch locked in the past) I looked at what I was doing in those situations. I was thinking about getting off the couch in the same way I would normally. I think of my body rising from the couch with a few movements in mind and normally my body would follow so autonomously that it would seem im directly controlling it all. But instead, the only way to get off the couch in such a situation is to think of what must actually be done to get off the couch. The muscles have to actually contract! I have to consciously put up with every little bit of strain that they go through. This is because when stoned we are also more consciously aware of sensations (which is an effect more commonly found amongst stimulants than depressants of course… though note that this doesn’t mean these things fall under the stimulant class! For most stimulants also enhance the automated reactions – though not necessarily diminishing conscious control, just increasing the amount of reaction that the automation gives to expected movements).

So the combination of these leads to the most favourable situation being: to just not get off the couch. But as im very slowly getting older, I realise more and more that what is desirable now might not be as desirable as I would be in 10 minutes if I get off the couch, go to the kitchen, fetch everything I need, and return to the couch a little disgruntled from having to do so much movement and give such a fuck, but then realise that im just as comfortable as I was before but that I also have all the other things I wanted and didn’t have. And thus with this in mind there is a motivator to perform conscious control, and of course with practice leading to being more aware of the processes of being stoned.



Now the other side of reaction is perception of what we are acting apon. Since the main ideas of what im saying have been mentioned, we can keep this short. Lets look back at another, simpler driver example. If a person is to successfully turn a corner at an intersection, he must consider a few things. He has to consider his speed and excelleration, but just as importantly must consider the lines on the road! The other cars on all sides. Where they are moving, or whether they are stationary. The lights. Pedestrians. These are all objects with behaviours that must be stored in short term memory in order to navigate the intersection without violating any. If these things are not properly stored in short term memory, then the person driving would have to constantly be looking around at every single direction to make sure the path is clear. Of course, without short term memory, a person would forget what they had seen by the time they made a full rotation of visual scan around their car. Thus, the importance of short term memory in coordinating tasks is paramount.

One thing we know that weed impairs is just this – short term memory. I would go so far as to say almost ALL stoned accidents are caused when a person lapses and forgets that an object is present, or moving toward them. This includes forgetting that you have to be aware of the thing in the first place.



So with all this in mind, what can we think?



Well firstly we can think ‘ok well where is the evidence that this happens?’ well considering the only evidence that marijuana is a depressant is behavioural and perhaps net-action observations on the brain, this system of looking at stoned coordination is just as valid. These concepts all involve pyramidal cells. The action of these cells is not properly understood, and so all we can work with are theories. To then test.



With this in mind, the only other things we can conclude is that in fact weed doesn’t prevent coordination, or I just have (as well as other people that i know, but not everyone since ive not met everyone nor gone inside their minds to test whether they are potentially competent at something) the ability to overcome the depressant effects of marijuana. The latter case is very unlikely and I think a silly idea, but if someone chooses to think that, it is logically possible.



So, who has anything to refute this idea? This is the first time I wrote it up, I was responding to a pm from nickelbag but realised this was a post in itself and something I wanted other people to consider.

 

Wow, surprisingly I read that whole thing, and have actually found myself debating the same side as you with other people. All I can really say on top of what you've already said is that I find myself much less clumsy while high, mainly because I'm concious of the fact that I'm baked and that if I act retarded, people will notice, whether or not I'm fumbling around normally anyhow. So I definitely make a concious attempt to act normal while high, and I believe that I am in fact more coordinated when high than not. I can barely catch a frisbee or football when not baked, but frisbee is the SHIT when you're all messed up lol. Anyhow, thanks for the great post bill, you're really a contribution to the community here at the HF.

/on that last note, there should be a "goodbye" that means "and I hope one day to blaze with one as insightful as you." rofl

 

This was very well written and thought provoking bill, I enjoyed reading it. As you stated when (I'm) high I notice that I become more concious of my movements sometimes too much in fact, to the point where the desired movement will take a really long time to do or just look ridiculous, of course depends on level of highness and other factors. But you summed it all up nicely.

Well Done.

 

good job articulating something I already knew, but never really put in words before, or at least, not as extensively. I think in real life we would get along great.

 

That makes a lot of sense! What's really cool is how something that would usually be difficult sober is all of the sudden easily accomplished high. For example, in high school I used to come to my first class high sometimes. Once the teacher tried to hand me a paper and she dropped it (it was the kind of "paper drop" where the paper goes back and forth thru the air a few times before hitting the floor). Instead of wildly flailing about to try and grab it, I calmly thought about where I thought the paper would land, and was able to grab it before it hit the floor. Yeah, I rarely ever feel clumsy while high; at least physically; mentally is a different story! lol

~Nova

 

The weird thing is when Im high I can be much more coordinated but Im not aware of what Im doing. I get snap decision reflexes but they seem to happen without any input from myself at all. Its like Im watching myself do these awesome things (like when Im kicking the shit out of a sober buddy on a video game or actually fighting with a friend) and i just laugh and say "Holy shit, howd I do that?!" Its pretty cool.

 

Hey stoner bill, the reaction time you're talking about could just be a matter of taking a moment to decide if moving is really worth disturbing your high!

 

another great post by stoner bill! good work captin lol

 

damn the next smoking session is going to suck, you know what your right but ive never really concentrated on it, now thats all thats going to be on my mind

 

sum that shit up

 

no

 

yeh i know the feeling, i think the feeling of having no imput is merely due to the amazement of it working taking your concentration away from what you actually did in that moment

 

roflmao, I was seriously gonna quote Sodiums post and say how the same sort of things seem to happen to me too. I seem to just... "understand", for lack of better words... how to do things the best way possible, how to position and time myself just right to achieve the desired effect. (hows that for unintentional innuendo?)

 

Kant's Critique of Pure Reason touches upon many of the different thought process of the human brain, and the level of awareness we have of/with each. This could all be applied to while you are high, as well.

 

Now that was a fun read, LOL...you must be workin' on another degree, Dr. Bill . It's my understanding--and I could be wildly wrong--that MJ is actually a hallucinagen, and not a depressant. In any case, there have been more'n a few stones where I was clumsy as shit or couchlocked, and others where I'd hit the top score playin' pinball. Generally, though, I've never noticed any really serious loss of coordination or reflexes while stoned. But just how much of that is from automated behavior...?

 

marijuana, in my opinion and experience, does not impair attention but rather interferes with multitasking in a temporal space. i find that my concentration is actually increased for a single, chosen task, whether it be coordinating a precise bodily movement or observing a specific visual stimulus.

it's the same reason why i don't believe that marijuana necessarily impairs one's driving ability. if marijuana simply limits distribution of attentional resources BUT at the same time actually heightening the focus of the task at hand, then that would explain why a specific objective could be accomplished at a performance level that is at or above the sober baseline.

 

Marijuana does impair my driving ability in a way. I dont drive crazy or anything, actually my friend was amazed at how I drive exactly the speed limit no matter if Im going up a hill or down a hill or whatever.

The problem is that im not really concentrating on my driving while im high. It all seems automated. I usually get pulled into the music we're listening to even when Im trying my best to concentrate on my driving. I guess its not really problem though because Im driving great.

The human brain is really something to behold. So amazing.

 

full attention involves thinking about things that arent directly involved with what youre doing at the very moment. concentration can be strong on things under your direct influence but concentration isnt just one dimensional, the best use of concentration involves thinking of many factors at once, including ones that arent related directly to the thing at hand.

 

i see what your saying, but i GUARANTY that if you eat TOO MANY space cakes that marijuana WILL impair your coordination and your ability to overcome the couch lock.

 

well there is a point where the amount of motivation you have to input your movement is more than youre willing to give but physically inable to move? i dont think so

obviously since the human mind is in no way infinite in any of its resources, you cant just compensate with more conscious control because theres only so much your conscious mind can be bohtered doing, just like in normal every day life