A rant on anti-Chrisian Wiccans.

The biggest irony is that for a country that founded it's own branch of Christianity, teaches religion in schools, and doesn't make a big deal out of seperation of Church and state (indeed the Queen runs them both)
the UK we are tolerant of other religions and as close to secular as you can get without being dicks over it. In fact every December they run articles about how people have been told they can't put up christmas trees because it might offend Muslims or something (then the Muslims say 'uh actually we don't have a shit', but that by the by).

How's that for contrast. Hmm no real suprise though, modern America was pretty much founded by a bunch of religious whackjobs with an attitude problem, so yeah figures.

It's wonderful really, this forum can rouse me to patrotism like nothing else in existence.

Exactly
Umm y'know I can't remember either, she did The Crucible but that's not much to go on. Am going to have to look it up now.

 

Upon checking Wikipedia for "Tituba", she was neither killed in the play nor in history because she confessed (as well as naming other "witches").

 

Ah right I see, thanks for that

 

It's amazing the way you guys specifically went out of your way to miss the point of the original post.

This person was getting shit for trying to learn from other people, and you don't have a problem with that? You don't have to practice a religion to learn from it. You don't have to practice a religion to say "You know, this story has a pretty good message to it", or "this passage is really nicely written."

It's a pretty screwed up world we live in where people give other people shit for doing that. What are you going to do next, sit alone in a dark cave and communicate with no one?

 

Im not sure if I agree with that. Why can you not mix religions like paint? Paint is made to be mixed, and be painted by creative minds to create something... Aren't all religions a huge painting of different colors and layers of the past constantly unfolding an creating something new? Its slow for us to see, but major religions have had their root in pagan religions, and once looked like something different today. This is undeniable. For the minds of people who perceive the religion will always be tied to their ancestors and what they taught their children.
I personally love to learn about how we humans express our relationship with creator. I mix the paint of these religions to create my own beautiful masterpiece..Im not going to spend my time painting Picasso's or Dali's work over and over again.

 

Awe, what sweet idealism. If i could give the world a hug and dance around in laughter in the painting of life....awe.

no, you cant mix religions like paint, not with a genuine respect for them that is.

Besides, some gods dont mix well with others, they are like oil and water(colors)

 

I dunno man, throughout history people have always shared gods. When the greeks, and later romans, created their empires, peoples, and thus their religions, mixed. New gods were adopted, new traditions practiced. Pagans historically have never had a problem adopting new beliefs/gods. Well, never say never, but in general anyways. Why should religion be stagnant and firm? Nothing else in the world is. Change is the rule, and true wisdom knows no bounds.

Even the "native pagan" religions of Europe aren't really native, except for the Lapplanders in Scandanavia. Agricultural gods spread out from Mesopotamia, along with farming/herding technology. They may have been adapted to/by each culture, but that's the point: taking something and making it yours. Can't see any problem with that.

 

Sharing gods, and "mixing religions" is two different things. When a people adopted a new god, they worshipped him in their way they worship their older gods.

 

Hmm. That sounds like mixing paint to me.


BTW, how I perceive this world works for me. I mix oil and watercolors together with mud, blood, and octopus ink. Then I injest it and give birth to multicolored worms that spiral into the pineal gland of small mammals to eventually create a mist of beneficial virus being inhaled by you right now.

This paint idea is just a bad analogy. Paint is meant to be mixed to make different colors and to paint something.

 

Thats not true. Most native European religion is from the older paleo and neolithic tribes that had been there since time unknown, the rest of the gods came with the Indo-Europeans, who didnt take anything from Mesopotamia. That isnt how religion spreads, just because one had god of grain, and another had a god of grain doesnt make them the same god with the same origins.

As to paints and faith, mix what you want, its not my thoughts on it that matters, but the dieties whom you mix. If it works for them, then who am I to say otherwise.

 

Um, Heron, are you at all familiar with Unitarian/Universalism? I'm a member at the UU church in, yes, you guessed it, Salem MA. All of the UU churches in this area have CUUPS groups (Covenant of UU Pagans). So there we are at services, hearing readings from the Bible, Black Elk Speaks, Torah, or a Margot Adler book...are we not "mixing religions"? The key is to take away from ALL of the world's wisdom teachings what you can, and throw the rest out. I've not come across a single path that is the single path...all trails lead to the same peak ultimately. Also check out some of H.P. Blavatsky's work (Theosophism) for some more right-on "mixing" of religions. And all reading here should refrain from bashing Salem, it's a great town and there are just as many sincere pagans as there are posers here.

 

Salem is not just a tourist town as far as pagans are concerned. I'd lived there for a long time and I can assure y'all that there are just as many sincere practitioners as there are posers. Because of the town's history there is a special emphasis put on making sure the pagans are always well protected and given a voice in town politics; it's a sensitivity that leads to many pagans, both sincere and faux, moving there because they feel comfortable to fully express themselves. Come on up for a visit!

 

This is really an interesting discussion. I've got a few comments to add.

To begin with, regarding the original post by Squirrel, I believe there is nothing wrong with learning about other religions; however there are fundamentalists in every religion, including many “pagan” forms. I've found the majority of fundamentalists (regardless of what religion they purport to practice) to be intolerant of anyone who doesn't agree with their particular worldview.

That being said, my personal take is that everyone has their own unique religion. Groups of people may identify themselves as practicing the same religion, but they don’t. They can’t. Every person’s perspective on the universe is unique and the logical result of this is that every person’s religion is unique.

As for mixing religions like paint; this has been happening since before we had a word for religion. “Mix and match” belief systems are what we have – Christianity is no exception, nor is any brand of paganism. The idea of “respect for the traditional belief systems/values as we have learned them” is a myth. No living religion exists which doesn’t adapt and change over time. What is more, there is no “qualification” which you must meet before you are “allowed” to do this. The elitist belief that one must be somehow qualified to determine ones own belief system is laughable.

Now, on to dealing with criticisms concerning the “Abrahimic” religions:

While my own interpretation of the central sacred text of most American Christians is that the one called “the father” or YHVH is evil and I cannot imagine why any sane being would worship that thing, I do understand that there are others who believe differently and I try to respect that. Regardless of how much they may object to this, the followers of these religions DO NOT all worship the same deity. A simple behavioral analysis of many so-called Christians in the United States is very likely to show that they actually worship their primary religious text (The Word?). This is particularly dangerous, given the ambiguous quality inherent in all languages and it usually leads to whole groups of people banding together under some charismatic leader whose interpretation of the text, then becomes its “true” meaning (i.e. “God’s Will”).

It is sad. I believe that this is caused by the fear of uncertainty. The lengths to which many people will go to avoid feeling uncertain often lead them into a sort of mental slavery – they become sheep. No longer willing or able to think for themselves, they fear and hate anyone else who does.

There are other “Christians” and other members of the various Abrahimic faiths who behave in a sane, rational, manner; who are capable of adapting their belief system to the influx of new information which they receive, who struggle to live rightly and to respect others, but they are rare.

Perhaps such people are simply rare regardless of what religious organization they belong to, but I must admit my personal bias: it is the followers of the Abrahimic faiths which confuse and frighten me the most. The most vocal and active among them (that I am aware of) seem bent on the destruction of the world (Armageddon/the Second Coming/the Rapture/Revelations/What-you-will), and it increasingly appears as if the process of bringing this about involves persecuting everyone who doesn’t believe as they do. Currently they have been confining the bulk of their activism toward the legislation of their own brand of morality and to claiming that THEY ARE THE ONES BEING PERSECUTED (lol) whenever this doesn’t happen as quickly as they wish. But make no mistake, their “To Do” list is long and the destruction of all pagans (and every other religion, for that matter – including many within their own ranks) is on that list – and we aren’t very far from the top. Just because they have turned their efforts toward eliminating gay and women’s rights at the moment doesn’t mean they aren’t just itching to swing their guns around to point at us.

Go to your Bible Study, if you wish. That is your prerogative. Most pagans have no real concept of “sin” and “An Ye Harm None, Do What Thou Wilt” is still our way. If it works for you, do it. Joseph Campbell and William James (the works of whom should be required reading for anyone who is seriously interested in understanding the nature of religion) would applaud your efforts. However, be very careful. I hope your Christian friends are the tolerant kind or you may be setting yourself up as a target for conversion by the sword. Don’t “out” any of your pagan associates to these people without their express permission – these are dangerous times.

 

You cannot just pick and choose, because a path requires great diligence.
The journey demands alot of attention.
Picking and choosing is merely skimming the surface, but are you ready to dive in deep?

Could it be that each religion is a blossoming of the divine, unique but
sharing the same source? But that still doesn't mean you can mash two flowers together, and expect to make another. At the same time, it doesn't mean you can't learn from another religion. Making a pretty flower arrangement will only lead to wilting and death - can you follow the threads to the source? Can you tap into the roots in which all of these religions have grown? I think that would be more important, more vital, than playing with colorful aesthetics. Just things to keep in mind.

 

somtimes, analogies are cop out explainations for something otherwise unjustifiable.

Back up your claim with fact and reason, not colorful imaginings of a utopic concept.

The whole "one divine source" justification should mean that it doesnt matter what religion you have, it's the same thing right?

Religions have their own specific dieties, and not all, if any, are of this "one source" you speak of. Some are ancestoral gods, some are regional spirits, and some are archtypes of their culture of origin.

The "one source" fluff concept is a western specific one, at least in the way it is being talked about here, and in most wiccan circles. The ancients never would have spoken in such a way.

Paganism isnt making it up and combining to suit you, its following the old ways. If you want to make up things and throw fluff up the asses of the world, then dont do it under the banner of pagan.

 

The ancient Romans adopted many of the religious practices of the Greeks and though the names of many of their gods are different, there is little doubt that the names refer to the same basic archetypes (if not the same deities). The Assyrian, Babylonian, Sumerian, and even the Ancient Hebrew gods were largely intermingled. If you look closely at the various deities of ancient cultures, you can trace the theological influences back and forth. There is a strong argument that the deity we know as YHVH is simply the grafting of the Egyptian monotheist religion of Atun onto pre-existing Hebrew practices. Are you attempting to claim that the priests of these cultures DIDN’T “make up things?” I’m curious to understand the method by which you believe we received any of the ancient religious rituals which you feel so strongly about if someone didn’t “make them up?” Even “divine inspiration” is simply transcendent thought – our understanding of the universe on a higher level than mere language can communicate. It works in much the same way artistic inspiration does (and may be the same thing for all we know).

Only fundamentalists are foolish enough to believe that their religious practices were handed to them complete and unsullied by human invention or interpretation. Simply because something is very old doesn’t mean that is better than anything we could come up with today. The changing of ancient practices shows no disrespect toward them – the mere fact that they are used as the base upon which we build our new rituals is proof of that. “Authenticity” is a marketing tool – it exists only in the minds of those who feel that thought is proprietary. Everything influences everything else it touches – even science has shown that the mere act of observation has an effect upon observed phenomena. Since this is so, how can a creative act of inspired worship be any less sacred than the dogmatic repetition of older rituals?

 

Yeah wouldn't that be Neo-Wicca*?
Well if you want to be diplomatic and give the thing a [possibly undeserved]sniff of gravitas.

Been there, done that, got nowhere. Feel a far greater contentment and focus from really studying in depth and seeing how things have always fitted together as they should [where is the sense in worshipping a God with a ritual derived from a culture totally alien to them?], rather than the 'window shopping' of a few years ago. I am polytheistic in principle but would happily only work with one diety if it meant we had a solid meaningful relationship. Can't see how that could work if you're juggling so many other concepets that don't apply to them. Religions intrigue me but I don't feel a need to treat them like a pick & mix, Gods are not confectionary. There is a lot of good in other religions, so I can admire them. Still am secure enough not to need to grab at every shiny new thing that comes my way.

I can see a sense of there being 'one divine' in certain religions, monotheistic ones obviously (maybe that's why it's a Western thing, an incomplete shedding of Judeo-Christian cultural/spiritual norms?). Have an inkling it may also be part of Hinduism, that all those God/desses are ultimatly facets of one Divine, but don't personally know enough about that religion to back it up.

Regardless I totally agree with Shaman Sun and Heron.

*as in the same old concepts/trite churned out by [you know who], as opposed to 'real' Wicca, ie what you learn from covens and that has lineage back to Gardener.

 

If you want to argue combining religious tenets and making things up out of whole cloth, perhaps you should post in the Christian forum