Israel's Most Powerful Weapon--The Holocaust

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/holocaust/index.cfm
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/resources/onlinebooks/Holocaust%20Victims%20Accuse.pdf
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/antisemitism/holocaust/holocaustmillions.cfm
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/rabbi_quotes/weissmandl.cfm
read it yourself....

 

“What I am saying is that there are alot of questions being raised by scholars who have non-politically correct views on the magnitude of the Holocaust.”

Can you please tell us who these people are and what evidence they are using to make such claims?

“I never EVER said that critics are completely silenced, I said that invoking the memory of the Holocaust has historically been an effective political weapon by Jews in order to morally shout down European pro-palestinian activists.”

It is tried just as I’ve pointed out some people such as Rat have tried to us the deaths under Stalin to try and claim all left wing politics is bad. In politics these things happen, so what is you point and your alternative. To me the claim that Stalinism is on a par with socialism is silly and so is claiming that criticism of the Israeli government is anti-Semitic is also. You admit that left wing efforts on behalf of the Palestinians goes on, so is your point on of censorship only, that in a few countries in Europe Holocaust denial is an offence? If so why not direct your criticism at those laws?

Maybe you should explain the countries and the laws to explain the context?

**

“Millions and millions of non-Jews were killed to and it is HIGHLY insulting to their memories to minimalize their deaths as the mainstream currently does”

In what way does the mainstream media actively ‘minimalize’ those deaths?
“The exact number of people killed by the Nazi regime may never be known, but scholars, using a variety of methods of determining the death toll, have generally agreed upon common range of the number of victims. Recently declassified British and Soviet documents have indicated the total may be somewhat higher than previously believed[24]. However, the following estimates are considered to be highly reliable. The estimates:
· 5.1–6.0 million Jews, including 3.0–3.5 million Polish Jews[25]
· 1.8 –1.9 million non-Jewish Poles (includes all those killed in executions or those that died in prisons, labor, and concentration camps, as well as civilians killed in the 1939 invasion and the 1944 Warsaw Uprising)[26]
· 500,000–1.2 million Serbs killed by Croat Nazis
· 200,000–800,000 Roma & Sinti
· 200,000–300,000 people with disabilities
· 80,000–200,000 Freemasons [27]
· 100,000 communists
· 10,000–25,000 homosexual men
· 2,500-5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses [28] “
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Death_toll
**

So to re-cap

The articles claim that “Israel's Most Powerful Weapon" is the Holocaust is shown to be incorrect

Criticism of Israel’s government is not stifled by references to the holocaust.

So what is the debate about now?

Some seem to be saying that mention of the holocaust somehow ‘diminishes’ the deaths happening elsewhere at other times, just because it is better known?

That seems silly, history just doesn’t work that way some events assume an importance or notoriety over others, and those events shift and change in importance over time.

But at the same time isn’t the reverse true by trying to highlight other deaths are people trying to diminish those of the holocaust? Yet the Nazis murders are of great importance, they were the first instance of ‘industrialised’ killings based on the ideological desire to exterminate ‘inferior’ peoples.

 

I will never be able to take you seriously again Matt, you are a joke.

 

Your arguments are specious deflective and wholly unpersuasive. The following stands on its own...
[size=+1]The Holocaust Industry
By Prof. Norman G. Finkelstein (Son of Holocaust survivors)
Published by Verso, New York and London
4-30-2


Note: One of the most controversial books in decades, 'The Holocaust Industry', continues to cause anger and consternation among readers in Europe and America. The following are a sampling of quotes from Professor Finkelstein's (City University of New York) book:


"The Holocaust" is an ideological representation of the Nazi holocaust. Like most ideologies, it bears a connection, if tenuous, with reality. The Holocaust is not an arbitrary, but rather an internally coherent construct. Its central dogmas sustain significant political and class interests. Indeed, The Holocaust has proven to be an indispensable ideological weapon. Through its deployment, one of the world s most formidable military powers, with a horrendous human rights record, has cast itself as a 'victim' state, and the most successful ethnic group in the United States has likewise acquired victim status. Considerable benefits accrue to this specious victimhood - in particular, immunity to criticism, however justified. " (Finkelstein, The Holocaust Industry published by Verso, London and New York (2000) (p 3)).

Some further quotes:

"In an authoritative study, Leonard Dinnerstein reported: Sixty thousand Jews.. walked out of the concentration camps. Within a week more than 20,000 of them had died.". But 'As it entered into negotiations with Germany [just two years ago, in 1999], the Holocaust industry demanded compensation for 135,000 still living former (camp inmates)."

On page 83 he notes that "The Israeli Prime Minister's office recently put the number of "living Holocaust survivors" at nearly a million."

On page 127, he further notes "If 135,000 former Jewish slave laborers are still alive today, some 600,000 must have survived the war. That's at least a half-million more than standard estimates... If Jews only constituted 20% of the surviving camp population and, as the Holocaust industry implies, 600,000 Jewish inmates survived the war, then fully 3 million inmates in total must have survived. By the Holocaust industry's reckoning, concentration camp conditions couldn't have been that harsh at all; in fact, one must suppose a remarkably high fertility and remarkably low mortality rate... If, as the Holocaust industry suggests, many hundreds of thousands of Jews survived, the Final Solution couldn't have been so efficient after all - exactly what Holocaust deniers argue." (pp127-8)."

"Both my father and my mother were survivors of the Warsaw ghetto and the Nazi concentration camps.. One of my father's lifelong friends was a former inmate with him in Auschwitz, a seemingly incorruptible left-wing idealist who on principle refused German compensation after the war. Eventually, he became a director of the Israeli Holocaust museum, Yad Vashem. Reluctantly, and with genuine disappointment, my father finally admitted that even this man had been corrupted by the Holocaust industry, tailoring his beliefs for power and profit. As the rendering of the Holocaust assumed ever more absurd forms, my mother liked to quote (with intentional irony) Henry Ford: 'History is bunk.' (ibid. p7)."

"The Holocaust proved to be the perfect weapon for deflecting criticism of Israel (ibid p30)."

"Much of the literature on Hitler's Final Solution is worthless as scholarship. Indeed, the field of Holocaust studies is replete with nonsense, if not sheer fraud." (p 55).

"Given the nonsense that is turned out daily by the Holocaust industry, the wonder is that there are so few skeptics." (p 68).

"Annual Days of Remembrance of the Holocaust are a national event. All 50 states sponsor commemorations, often in state legislative chambers.. Seven major Holocaust museums dot the American landscape. The centerpiece of this memorialization is the United States Holocaust museum in Washington.. (This) museum's annual budget is $50 million, of which $30 million is (taxpayer) federally-subsidized." (p72). (This is in spite of the fact that, as he points out on page 32, per capita Jewish income in the US is almost double that of non-Jews). "With a re-election campaign looming, Jimmy Carter initiated the (US Holocaust Museum) project to placate Jewish contributors and voters, galled by the president's recognition of the "legitimate rights" of Palestinians." (p 73).

And:

"The Holocaust may yet turn out to be the "greatest robbery in the history of mankind"... The Holocaust industry has clearly gone berserk."(p 138-9). [/size]

 

• THE HOLOCAUST VICTIMS ACCUSE, Rabbi Moshe Shonfeld, Bnei Yeshivos,161 East Houston Street #10, New York, NY 10013, 124pp, paperback, $3.00. ISBN: not given.

reviewed by Lewis Brandon (David McCalden)The sub-title of this book is "Documents and Testimony on Jewish War Criminals." Its position on the "Holocaust" is a remarkable one. Rabbi Shonfeld belongs to an ultra-orthodox sect of Hassidic (or Chassidic) Jews who regard the state of Israel as a blasphemy. Their view is that Israel may only be founded when the Messiah comes, and, quite obviously, neither David Ben-Gurion, nor Golda Meir, nor Menachem Begin, are the Messiah. Throughout the text, "Israel" is written in quotation marks, in a style that echoes the habit of some Revisionist scholars who insist on writing "Jews" in quotes (since most modern-day Jews are not from Judea at all, but from Khazakhstan). From time to time, the author also refers to "Eretz Yisroel." The text of the book consists of ten indictments against various wartime Zionist leaders, who in the author's opinion, deliberately sacrificed their fellow Jews in the "Holocaust" so that the elite Jews could be granted passage to Palestine. He also condemns those loud-mouthed Zionists in the United States, who "stupidly antagonized the Nazi fuhrer ... by making speeches and blowing shofar in front of the German consulate ... and by calling for a boycott of German goods. " The author also apologizes for having to use the term "Holocaust" since it "has been turned into a Zionist battlecry, which we abhor, but have been forced to use for identification purposes."


Does not sound much like a mainstream historical document to me. I think that there is better documentation on the history of the Zionist movement out there.

 

That's the best you can say? Say that its not-mainstream??? You have got to be kidding me. The mainstream position is total BS and most intelligent people know that. The book's findings sounds just fine to me and MANY MANY MANY others...

 

You do realize that with all your holocaust-denial propaganda, you are not winning any cool points with the majority of long-time members right?

This is hipforums which is a place where 99% of the people are all about the peace, love, tolerance, and NON-DENIAL OF HORRIFIC ATROCITIES committed by tyrannical governments.

You're so infused with blind hatred for Israel and the US that you are actually trying to play the sickening card of "The Holocaust wasn't that terrible" and you think that will earn you respect around here? You're practically defending the Nazi's claim that the Holocaust wasn't a genocide that took the lives of millions of innocent people. You are defending fucking Nazis!

I wouldn't be shocked if you were a Klan member posing incognito on these forums. They like to downplay the Holocaust.

 

topolm


“Your arguments are specious deflective and wholly unpersuasive”

They maybe, but since you don’t seem to be answering or dealing with them they therefore still stand.

**

For example you reply to may post by cut and pasting something that seems to have come directly from the NEO-NAZI website STORMFRONT
http://www.stormfront.org/whitehistory/finkelstein.htm

down to the “Some further quotes:” and “On page 83 he notes that”.

Why are you seeming to use such white supremacist websites as a source, you must realise that they are unlikely to be unbiased.

You say that “The mainstream position is total BS” but are you then implying that people should take as some kind of ‘truth’ the words of racists?

**

 

What people keep forgetting is the difference between the Jewish Holocaust and the Soviet, Cambodia, Irish, Chinese, etc one's; is the intent to exterminate a specific group of people. The Soviets weren't trying to kill the Siberian's Russians alone, just anyone who opposed their commands. Which pretty much can be said about the rest. China, it was about food shortage. Poor command & organization led to that one.

With the Jewish, it was a systematic killing of a group of people because of how the looked, believed, etc. This was a genecide. The Final Solution covers this, Nazi's were trying to ride Europe and eventually the world of Jews. And they were pretty successful if they decreased the population by a third. That means you could go up to any Jewish person today and they would know someone either in their family or a friend of the family that was affected by the Final Solution.

And that, my friends, is the tragedy.

As to the article, it's nothing but propaganda for not supporting Israel in the current conflict. The author lost all credibility when he went into a diatribe about Israel/US/Lebanon. If he kept it neutral and unbiased, I would have been inclined to see his point. But it looked like an emotional rant to me.

 

You're a racist for writing this; you employ unjustified ad hominem attacks that are obvious to all.

Holocaust denial Propoganda?! Hatred for the US? Blidn hatred of Jews?? LOL! Are you high? Seriously... are you? See post 53. Are you kidding me? The title of this WHOLE thread is: "Israel's Most Poweful weapon--the Holocaust".

Nice try but what an obviously amateurish attempt at smearing... It doesnt work. Sorry. Show me where I say anything you claim! I put it in its proper context. The reality is that MUCH MUCH MUCH WORSE things have happened. I provided evidence from Jewish groups and you write this horseshit? WOW! I emailed your post to some of my Jewish friends who follow Finkelstein, and they agreed that its total BS: a copout if you will.

I find it offensive that you trivialize the vastly greater number of deaths that resulted from the systematic genocide of people in communist countries. Their murders were systematically planned out by Commissars who "liquidated" 60,000,000 Eastern Orthodox Christians (code word for Russian) simply for their beliefs which were incompatible with the implementation of atheistic totalitarianism.

This is the type of propoganda that Pro-Israel (pro-genocide) jews use to silence critics. Your militant diatribe is wholly ineffective. People read this and take it in and think it over. You offer nothing intelligent.

Lastly, you dont belong in this community because yes, we're about peace, love and tolerance, and you sir are not. You ABSOLUTELY refuse to admit that Israel has used the Holocaust as a weapon to silence criticism of its transparently GENOCIDAL actions in the middle east. This is nothing more than thinly veiled and tacit endorsement of the current Holocaust occuring in the middle-east. Anything BUT strong and vigorous condemnation of Israel is complicity at this point.

Not winning points huh??? Are you kidding me??? I provide the truth, and many people are VERY VERY happy about this. What I have posted over the past few days has provided evidence of this.

No refutation AT ALL. You dont like it and blow up like a pissed off little girl who didnt get her way. Try harder grasshopper.

 

Really... LOL! I think you're chasing a non-existent boogie man...
http://www.rense.com/general24/kud.htm

 

Ah Rense, the man who boldly states satanists control the weather.

Does this guy reference his mom in a selected quote to sway readers? enthralling.

Everything posted is asanine commentary. Israel silences critique by invoking the Holocaust...The only things there that isn't commentary are the figures of how much we spend on the Holocaust memorial.

The other thing that the book states as fact, is 600,000 original holocaust survivors, which is a dubious projection based on living holocaust survivors.

Not census figures or anything legitamate. But after that, he says if jews only constitued 20% of living holocaust victims...

They didn't. I don't know where the author came up with that number, but it's wrong.

What happened to these other 2.4 million people? How come nobodys speaking out for 2.4 million holocaust survivers? Ho come many more accounts weren't published from 2.4 million people. Did they have it so good in concentration camps they didn't feel the need to talk about it?

Are they all silenced by the Jewspiracy?

What a soft nebulous pile. And then the author wonders why the Holocaust deniers aren't taken with any merit?

Well I suppose white power movements and an anti-semite who belives satanists control the weather recommend the book. Hell of an endorsment.

 

So you're implying that only Jews were targeted, and that the magic 6 million number is accurate, despite there being no evidence to prove this was the number killed? We should just repeat this chorus line because it is politically correct to do and is constantly pumped into our heads by the establishment?

And even if the 6 million number was accurate, which it's not, what about the millions of NON-JEWS who also died? Why is it that we only hear about the Jews?

You say that the communists weren't targeting anyone specifically, which is false. They targeted czarists and Christians in particular. We never hear about this, though. How is what the communists did any less genocidal than what the Nazis did?

Hitler was a sick man. The people backing him were even sicker. And genocide is genocide. Far more people were killed under communism than nazism, but all you ever hear about is nazism and the Holocaust, as if this holds more importance than any other Holocaust throughout history where millions were slaughtered in a most barbaric way.

 

Do you have ANYTHING to support Jeff Rense himself saying that "satanists control the weather"? Or are you just making shit up again to fit with your argument that we're all kooks.

Last I checked, Rense doesn't even write any of the articles on his site. They are all from third-party sources.

The fact of the matter is that the article didn't even originate from Rense or his website. That article can actually be found on numerous websites.

Attacking the website something came from is stupid when it's used as a way to avoid having to refute anything the article mentions.

All some of you people are capable of doing is playing the role of the establishment by labeling us kooks and anti-Semites. It serves the same goal, which is to shut people up without having to address any of the facts.

 

Well you're right. Rense doesn't say much on his site. I gave him too much credit.

He does focus on many articles about government weather control.

http://www.rense.com/general18/mn.htm

And satanists controlling the government.

http://www.rense.com/general40/proto.htm

So transitively in many forms his website does claim that satanists control the weather.

Theres a disclaimer which says rense doesn't endorse any article just by being from his site alone.

But why would he contantly suggest the same articles over and over again?

But you're right. Rense never did state that directly.

I'm assuming that he didn't write up the selected quotes from The Holocaust Industry either, but rather took them from the white power website.

 

I know what you are talking about - 12 million people died at the hands of Hitler and his armies. It just so happened that half the people were Jewish. Yes, I believe that this is a factual number.

I will give you this concession, some people play up this number to win sympathy. Fine.

But you still have to admit, Jews have been scapegoats throughout history. Look at the Inquisition for one.

 

OK. So what exactly is your point, Lodui?

 

Mao Killed Far More People during His Genocide than Hitler did during the 1930s-40s, but no one ever mentions that Genocide....

 

This is true, yes he did. Soemthing like 40,000,000 systematically and efficiently murdered. Thankyou for bringing that up. The Chinese people have suffered TREMENDOUSLY under totalitarianism.

 

Doesnt matter who selected the quotes. The quotes were written by NORMAN FINKELSTEIN - SON OF HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS... What part dont you get you yo yo